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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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jgttechjunkie
.275 member


Reged: 20/02/04
Posts: 59
Dakota Model 10
      #9611 - 20/02/04 03:22 PM

I know the Dakota Model 10 is pricey for most, but I am interested in it. Unfortunately there is almost no information available about this rifle. I found one review on the web that compared it to an inexpensive rifle - a prince and pauper article, and the conclusion there was that it was beautiful but the writer wasn't happy with the trigger travel, the hammer fall and the ejection system.
Has anyone had experience with this rifle? I own #1's and a #3 now - love the #1's. Have had my eye on the Hagn ever since he came out with it. Now can afford whatever I want and the Model 10 has caught my eye.

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ChuckWagon
.275 member


Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 90
Loc: USA
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: jgttechjunkie]
      #9639 - 20/02/04 11:57 PM

If you can afford what ever you want then get the Dakota ! What is the difference what any one else thinks ? If the trigger is a bit off just have it tuned. I rather doubt that will be the case. You can usually find several used ones on Gunsamerica.com Some of the guys their are dealers so you might get some info as well. I especially like the Mini Sharps in 22 Hornet. Any gun that is at the top end seems to draw a number of critics simply based on the price tag.

--------------------
Life is more like a jar of Jalapeno's than a box of chocolates. What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !

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thefinegunmaker
.224 member


Reged: 21/02/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Wisconsin
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: jgttechjunkie]
      #9694 - 21/02/04 08:02 AM

I worked for Dakota from '92 to '97 and spent a lot of time on the single shot project. When I started they had shipped very few #10s and I helped them build fixtures and processes for sub assembling the machined parts into working actions. Worked in the metal shop for about 6 months and trained someone else to take over the sub assembling, quarter ribs, barrel bands and polishing on the #10s. Then I moved into the stock shop and remained there for the rest of my time. I built the stock patterns for the #10s and bolt guns and digitized them for CNC production. I really enjoied stocking the trim little #10. It comes up like a fine shotgun and points very well "for me". There is lots of work to do when the stock comes off the CNC so different stockmakers there produced slightly different looking finished rifles. I probably removed more wood than the rest of the guys while trying to shape that perfect "feel".

I don't have any #10s in my collection because of my personal love of bolt actions. The wood has much more impact to the viewer in a one piece stock.

The only problems I have with the #10 are the firing pin design and lack of ejector. If the pins are not fit right they will break. I wouldn't trust the #10 on a trophy hunt like I would one of my Mausers. But for local deer/varmint hunting it's great. This is just my personal opinion, remember I no longer work there.

It's a great little rifle if you are looking to add to your collection. If you've seen Tom Turpin's book Modern Custom Guns then you've seen some of my work. I stocked most, not all of the #10's and some of the bolt guns featured in his book. I do miss working on them.

gunmaker
http://users.elknet.net/chico

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: thefinegunmaker]
      #9706 - 21/02/04 09:02 AM

finegunmaker,

...great post...i have tom's book, and will be sure to 'look you up'...

...given your dakota work experience, and appreciation of fine mausers, how would you rate the dakota 76?...97?...how about against the johannsen and heym actions?...

...thanks for your thought...

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SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: jgttechjunkie]
      #9734 - 21/02/04 12:10 PM



If you've seen TT's book you've seen me stocking a Low Wall, and lots of guns & rifles I've built. This is the third of four rifles built on #10 action, is very accurate .257 Roberts and just happens to be for sale.



Note the custom trigger guard, like an English SS, custom trigger (much larger) and contoured lever. The stock is 20 year old English.

It is considerably more expensive than a Dakota. PM me if you are interested.
sdh

--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

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thefinegunmaker
.224 member


Reged: 21/02/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Southern Wisconsin
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #9738 - 21/02/04 12:58 PM

Thomas

Turpin's book is a great selection of a variety of custom rifle work.

Concerning the Dakota 76 and 97, the 97 is just a 76 turned round. At least that's how the prototypes were made. They started out as prototype actions for the Beretta Mato and that never took off so Dakota decided to market a less expensive line of action. Much much less work goes into building a round action than a flat bottom one. Above the wood line they look very similar, but the price tag is not. Round actions do not bed in a wooden stock as well as a flat bottom one. The round action acts as a wedge and the bedding will loosen up over time when the gard screws are tight and the natural expansion of the wood changes with humidity.

I have not seen the Heym action and only seen the Johannsen action on hallowellco.com. But in comparing a Winchester style action to a "pure" Mauser style, the Winchester style trigger is the best hunting trigger in the world and the three position safety is also great. The flange on the Mauser bolt sleve does a much better job protecting the shooter when excessive pressures from a ruptured case come back in your face. Overall I believe the Mauser 98 is the safest bolt action available anywhere. The case hardening makes them slick as glass and not as likely to come apart in your face. I've never heard of a Dakota coming apart in pieces even though they are not case hardened.

I heard a rumor that the new broaching machine that Dakota uses for the bolt raceways cuts part of the receiver threads out on the extractor side. This is similar to the new M70 Winchesters, Interarms Mauser and left handed Ackley Mauser98 I've seen. It doesn't bother too many people, but if you're asking big money I think the threads should stay. My older Dakota actions have full threads.

I've got some Dakota 76 and Mausers in my collection and think it's good to have a variety if you have the room. If you don't have the room, buy a bigger safe.

If I were limited to one rifle it would be a Mauser 98. I'm just glad I'm not that limited.

Sorry to change the topic of this thread. I hope I haven't confused anyone.

gunmaker
http://users.elknet.net/chico

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: thefinegunmaker]
      #9741 - 21/02/04 01:35 PM

finegunmaker,

...i appreciate your most informative post, especially the history behind the development of the dakota 97 action...

...some say that a round-body action (c.f., carmichael) is the primary reason why the rem 700 is so accurate, at least insofar as the world of production rifles are concerned...

...in terms of the action bedding integrity of the 97 over time, imho, a properly bedded recoil lug - as in the case of the beretta mato deluxes - should alleviate the possibility of action shifting/gaps down the line...

...i currently have a ruger rsm in .416 rigby, but was thinking of later replacing with a dakota african, heym express or johannsen in the future...

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Holmes
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 159
Loc: Wyoming, USA
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #9749 - 21/02/04 03:19 PM

Impressive, gentlemen.

Thanks to Gunmaker and SDH. You both certainly bring some real expertise to the forum. This post is most interesting.

And love those pics of that fine furniture, SDH. You're a cruel man to tempt me with such a fine quarterbore It's probably beyond my resources but I sure enjoy the window shopping!

Regards,

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: SDH]
      #9759 - 21/02/04 06:52 PM

sdh,

...beautiful work there...noticed that you are well represented in tt's book...also have your double shotgun book...

...as an aside, know you are a 'photo-bug'...care to share re favoured cameras for your fine gun photography?...fine guns and fine cameras have a tendency to go hand in glove so to speak...

...thanks for your thoughts...

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SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #9788 - 22/02/04 06:25 AM

All of the photos are done in a studio set-up. Most of the color is shot with a Toyo 4x5 rail camera, the real trick being a Roedenstock 210 lense. Most of the B&W is done with a simple Yashica Mat 124G, 2 1/4, twin lense reflex. I've been using both cameras for so long I can't remember how long. Will probably be writing a column for Shooting Sportsman on the techniques I use in the very near future. Lighting is everything.

Are you aware of the book Custom Rifles in Black & White? 250 photos including 14(?) custom single shot rifles. Check fandangopress.com (other titles)

The posted images were done with a very simple Fugifilm digital camera. Please don't ask me about that one, I'm quite ignorant about digital.


--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

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DPhillips
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: SDH]
      #9832 - 22/02/04 05:02 PM

SDH,
I thought those initials were familiar, but after looking at the Dakota, I knew we had a celebrity (of sorts ) here. I picked up a copy of your book at SCI Reno this year and have read it a couple of times since arriving home.

You do great work.

How would you rate the Dakota action against the Hagn?

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: SDH]
      #9868 - 23/02/04 05:03 AM

sdh,

...really appreciate you taking the time to respond and for sharing your photography hints...

...have enjoyed your fine guns and fine photography over the years, and think an article in shooting sportsman would be a great idea and a valuable resource for properly preserving what is rightfully an art form...

te

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SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: DPhillips]
      #9902 - 23/02/04 04:08 PM

Hey guys, I really appreciate your appreciation of my work, but don't get that confused with making me any kind of celebrity/personality. My friends know better.

The Dakota is a very good small frame action, but the best parts of it, the trigger/sear/mainspring was "borrowed" by Don -GOD REST HIS soul- Allen just as he "borrowed" so many things from so many gunsmiths. Ask the Little Sharps Rifle Guys! I do a lot of modification to the Dakota's, especially lowering both top and bottom tangs by nearly 1/4". I've my first Hagn brld action in the safe right now (Ralf Martini and Martin Hagn are good friends of mine, see the stories in Accurate Rifle 2/03-4/03 for my take on the Hagn) but have yet to stock one. Martini & Hagn will soon have a small frame model and I have #001 on order.

I don't imagine doing much at all to the Hagn though I do like how Ed Webber reshaped the breechblock on his rifle in my Custom Rifles book. One must be very carefull not to shorten the rear of the block too much or cartridges may hang up on the block mortice rear lip as they do on Dakota's. I put a spring loaded plunger in the bottom of Dakota breechblocks to alliviate this problem.


--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: SDH]
      #9943 - 24/02/04 05:38 AM

...now that's a great attitude!...tho, in my humble opinion, due acknowledgement should be given to those who have advanced the sport/art form...thanks...

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jgttechjunkie
.275 member


Reged: 20/02/04
Posts: 59
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #10104 - 25/02/04 02:29 PM

I just found a shop in New Jersey that had a Dakota Model 10 as well as a Little Sharps. The Model 10 was in 7-08, I forget what the Little Sharps was in. First time I have picked either up. What wonderful rifles! Of course one immediately notices things one would like slightly different - like the width of the trigger on the Model 10. This store is getting several more 10's in - in 30-30, 348 Winchester, 405 Winchester. Thanks for all the comments.

Unfortunately my life got complicated by one reference on this board to a falling block action that I had never heard of before - from Hall manufacturing. Got to look at that right? (On the website they have a picture of the action and it seems homely.) I have been following the Hagn and the Allen actions since they first were announced, and the Hagn still is on my list. But I may spring for an off the shelf Model 10 so I can have it for sure for hunting this Fall, and dream about the rest later.

Modern designers of anything have many advantages, such as new and better materials that make some designs work that would have failed in the past, but most important they can see how previous people solved problems and borrow the best. Didn't Browning have the benefit of the Sharps design to look at for his falling block? Of course I had a conversation with the Little Sharps people in Montana and as SDH pointed out, they have a different vantage point on this type of issue.

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SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: jgttechjunkie]
      #10134 - 25/02/04 06:56 PM

junkie,
You're a thinker and a reader. Just keep things in perspective. Cool rifles are just that. Make sure you get yourself what you deserve, in your price range, I have to add.
Custom stuff, especially from this shop, takes a lot of time and planning and $'s, but is rarely altered after the fact and I'd hope not for generations to come. A wealthy friend of mine shot several African antelope with a circa 1900 large Martini, .303 last year, his own handlodes. Early custom rifle, open iron sights. Lots of fun. He also owns a custom Dakota #10 from my shop.
I think you can imagine what is might be like to swack even a forked horn mule deer with my sidelever. I hope for kudu in Oct.
The Dakota #10 trigger REALLY SUCKS. But you need to try another before you can believe that.

--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

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AdamTayler
.375 member


Reged: 22/03/04
Posts: 688
Loc: B.C.
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: SDH]
      #12528 - 26/03/04 05:22 PM

I saw some Martini & Hagn singles (and one double) on display at a gun show last weekend. Ralf Martini was behind the table showing his work, and though I'm pretty much a virgin with falling blocks, those rifles were exquisite.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #12601 - 27/03/04 06:50 PM

Both Ralf Martini and Martin Hagn are good friends of mine and their combined work is exquisite. I have one of their barreled action in the safe awaiting stocking and I'm really looking forward to the project. Martini & Hagn rifles, in US dollars, are a bargain any way you look at it.
Just think about it, a rifle made by the guy that invented the action, in his lifetime, which happens to be one of the finest single shot action ever thought of?
I've got number 001 of the small action on order, and it's a keeper. I consider the standard size action just right for anything from 7mm to 338 a perfect size. Anything they do, especially with one of Ralf's integral octagon barrels, sublime.
I did a three part magazine piece for Accuate Rifle on my take of their products, Ralf probably gave you a copy, eh?

--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

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AdamTayler
.375 member


Reged: 22/03/04
Posts: 688
Loc: B.C.
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: SDH]
      #12632 - 28/03/04 02:23 AM

They are a good buy. I believe the action is the same price as a Dakota's except in Canadian dollars. The octagon barreled rifle that was on display really caught my eye. I did not see any photocopys of any articles though that does not mean that they were not there. The table generated a lot of interest. Where can I get a copy of your articles? I see you ended your question with "eh". Have you spent a lot of time here in Canada?

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #12678 - 28/03/04 01:19 PM

Precision Shooting, the parent magazine (860) 645-8776 can probably supply back issues, the ones in question are Accurate Rifle Feb (cover photo), March and April 2003.
I haven't spent nearly enough time in Canada, mostly because every time I get near the border I remember the loaded S&W I've got with me. But I've had many Canadian friends over the years that I have cherished. I will be in Cranbrook in 2004 one way or another.

--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

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AdamTayler
.375 member


Reged: 22/03/04
Posts: 688
Loc: B.C.
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: SDH]
      #28142 - 22/03/05 04:30 PM

SDH

I saw Ralph this weekend at the Kamloops gun show, and he had some copies of your book there. I am looking forward to reading it. One question, why did you take all the pictures in b&w and not colour?

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Dakota Model 10 [Re: AdamTayler]
      #30069 - 26/04/05 11:10 AM

Longtime between replies on this board.

Photography for Custom Rifles began about 1990 when I was doing the Custom Corner column for Rifle Mag. At that time much of the magazine photography was B&W, and so the book evolved from that premice. Most of the photos were shot between 1990 and 2000. I rather enjoy it in b&w.

I just recently retired the B&W camera.
SDH

--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

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