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SaxonPig
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Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 5
Can anyone offer an estimated market value?
      #14279 - 04/05/04 09:17 AM

I realize prices are subjective based on many variables, but I am curious as to what the current market value might be on a rifle I purchased about 30 years ago. A ballpark estimate would be appreciated.

It is a Cogswell & Harrison side by side in .375 Nitro Express with 25" barrels and a boxlock action. Double triggers and the usual folding three-leaf sight. Retains about 85% of its finish and functions nicely.

I contacted C&H and they said it was built in 1910 and sold to a man who had the same name as the then prince of Afghanistan although I do not know if it is, indeed, the same man. A few years later it was sold on consignment through their London shop to a buyer with an English name and the title "Honorable" but I do not know what status he held to earn that title. A judge or some sort of elected official, maybe? Anyway, C&G said they lost track of the gun until I contacted them about six years ago.

So, any speculation as to what this rifle might fetch? Thanks.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14285 - 04/05/04 11:51 AM

Where are you from? That will make a differance on shipping and possibly a VAT. Any pictures? Is it the 375 FM or the 375 Express. It is definetly worth more than you paid 30 years ago.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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holland465
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 71
Loc: California
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14293 - 04/05/04 05:00 PM

C&H rifles and shotguns over the years have gotten a very bad rap. In all honesty they kind of deserved it. If you look at the bulk of English gunmakers today the locks are very similar in many ways. They copied each other and some added the best features of several different types of locks. Not Cogswell! They wanted to be different and they are! Their locks seemed to be completely different from all other makers and that is OK if they are fairly reliable. When a problem arises in a C&H gun it is usually a real pain to repair. Due to this fact, they are more expensive to fix than the other makers rifles. They do have problems that will surface and you have to be willing to pay the price to have them repaired.
This said, I would estimate that your rifle would have a value in the range of 6800.00 to 7500.00. Finding a buyer may be a little more difficult than normal but I am sure that there is buyer out there somewhere.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14296 - 04/05/04 08:07 PM

"Honorable" is usually used for members of Parliament, as in the "Honorable" John Howard . What a contradiction in title for a politician.

"Justice" is used for magistrates and judges. As in Justice Fred Bloggs.



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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3520
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Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: holland465]
      #14302 - 04/05/04 10:11 PM

Holland465:
Well we're not letting you leave it at that, mate! I take it you mean that the Coggsie box-lock is NOT made under the Anson and Deeley patent, but is completely different. I have been tempted by Coggsie 'Cosmos' shotguns and Paradox-type guns in the past, and could concievably give in to a future temptation. Please explain how they differ: I may need to know this!

Thanks in advance.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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SaxonPig
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Reged: 04/05/04
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Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14306 - 04/05/04 10:56 PM

I live in the USA. The caliber is the .375 X 2.5" Rimmed. I have a small supply of proper cases that I bought years ago from Bell but mostly I form cases from .30-40 Krag which are a tad short but otherwise work fine.

This rifle is very accurate with the 235 Speer bullet loaded to about 2,200 FPS. The first time at the range I fired a round from each barrel at 100 yards and the bullets impacted within one inch of each other. One time I was out in the desert with friends doing some "plinking" and at 25 yards I shot a 12 ounze soda can laying on the ground. Hit near the rim, it flipped about 30 feet into the air and I hit with the other barrel just as it reached the apex of it's arc, sending it flying off into the distance. My friends were very impressed but I knew it was a fluke. I recently tried some cast lead bullet loads but they key-holed and I think perhaps the rifling isn't sharp or deep enough for lead projectiles.

I saw this rifle on consignment in a shop when I was an 18 year-old college student. It was marked at $1,300 and that was a fortune at the time. I loved the double guns and wanted one very badly but there was no way I could buy this. Well, about three years later it was back in the same shop up for sale again. This time the price was $1,800 and this time I had to have it. I left a deposit and spent the next several days collecting debts owed me and selling other guns.

In 1986 the gun was stolen in a home burglary. Of the 23 guns that were taken, only four have been recovered (one just last year). This one was one of them. The thief took this rifle to a gun show and offered it around at $300! One potential buyer was an off-duty police officer who knew the price was too good. He "ran the serial number" and it came back as "hot."

I have quite a history with this little rifle and I have no plans to sell it. It is great fun to shoot and it's something that is a little different from what everyone else is shooting at the range.

I was just curious as to how much it has appreciated over the years. I wish it could talk and tell me where it was and what it doing between 1920 and 1975.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14307 - 04/05/04 11:02 PM

Don't give up on cast loads. Most guys seem to have great success with a medium-hard bullet that's .002" over bore size and needs to driven from 1700-1900 f/s. Maybe the bullets you were using weren't the right weight.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: holland465]
      #14309 - 04/05/04 11:09 PM

holland465 - You are obviously a Holland man and you would have been interested to see the look of utter distain on David Wink's (formerly of Holland's) face at a Melbourne Gunshow several years ago when he lifted the lid on a cased Coggie - it was as if a cat had had crapped inside it!

But, I agree with you for different reasons - Coggie's may not be built on standard A&D actions, but in this respect they are no exception in the English Gun Trade - Greeners' variants like the Empire, Unique, Facile Princeps being examples of improved boxlock actions. Whether C&H's "Avant Tout" type action is technically inferor is anybody's guess!

I can't comment about ease of repair - there may not be standard V Springs etc. that will fit them, but in reality, they are little different from other hand-made English guns in this repect.

But, with Coggie's, any beauty they might have is only skin deep, even with their higher grade models!

Take the locks off one their higher grades like "Extra Quality Victor", and the standard of finish is about on the level of a second or third rate Spanish gun!

But, as they say "the proof of the pudding, etc.", so the question is how do they shoot? Well, in my experience C&H's shotguns can't really be faulted on this score, nor can their Magazine rifles, but as for their Double Rifles, perhaps someone out there might care to comment - if they are game enough to admit to owning one?

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14314 - 05/05/04 12:01 AM

470Rigby

You are harsh. So I take you don't care for them much?

I used to have a 20 Ga. Avant Tout that was a pretty nice little shotty. Unfortunately I traded it away for something I had to have at the moment and now can't even remember what it was.:(

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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SaxonPig
.224 member


Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 5
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: mickey]
      #14320 - 05/05/04 04:41 AM

470Rigby- You ask if anyone would care to admit to owning a C&H rifle. Well, I did. That's how this thread started, remember? Since you've decided to share your opinion despite the fact that nobody asked for it, let me check and see if I care what you think.

Nope, I don't.

I was just curious about the market value on this rifle. I really didn't intend for it to become a debate on the quality of one name brand versus another and frankly, I didn't ask for your opinion on the quality of this gun and I can do without your condescending attitude. It strikes me as just a bit rude to reply to my post about my Cogswell & Harrison rifle with complaints about the quality of Cogswell & Harrison guns and insinuations that anyone owning one is foolish to do so. If you can't say something nice, perhaps you shouldn't say anything at all. At least, would you mind saving your critical commentary for your own thread? Thank you.

Perhaps I erred by participating in this forum. I rather expected more polite treatment.

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RLI
.375 member


Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14322 - 05/05/04 07:49 AM

I am not sure what the value would be but it would have to be worth more than a new Merkel or Krieghoff in my opinion . You have a English Double in .375 it has to be worth it ! I wish I had a Coggie in this calibre .
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14327 - 05/05/04 10:00 AM

SaxonPig - Ooops! No personal slight intended.

But do I have strong opinions about Coggie’s? Yes I do, and if one can’t air them on an Internet Forum, then where? What do you want this to be, a venue for a bunch of backslapping “good ole boys”. Believe me, the standard of debate on forums elsewhere on the Internet is somewhat more robust than my contribution here.

Besides, I don’t think that one has ownership of a thread? If the “moderators” want to lay down any rules along these lines, then so be it!

As for C&H guns, at a period in history when English Gunmakers adopted “Best Practice”, in other words, a “no-compromise” attitude to quality in their “Best” guns, C&H were a standout in selling less than that, while still representing them as “Bests”.

Yes, other Gunmakers made guns of lesser quality, but this was clearly stated, even to the point of describing them as Class A, B, C, D, etc. Rigby and Purdey being names that spring to mind.

All this has a bearing on perceived values in the modern context. Since you did not state the Grade/Model of your rifle, any attempt at estimating a value would be futile, since you can only benchmark off what other similar guns have been selling for.

Also, you were not totally clear about the chambering. .375 calibre, whether the Flanged Magnum or the earlier 21/2" "non-magnum" are comparatively rare chamberings in English Doubles, leaving aside both cartridges originator, Holland & Holland. Accordingly, valuing it is bound to be fraught with difficulty. That’s why I offered no opinion on it’s value, but make no mistake, it’s not a Holland & Holland Royal grade.

Anyway, I was directing my comment to 465holland's post - the issue of C&H "quality" was raised there! Whether you seek to adopt a "head in the sand" approach to these issues is up to you, but I'm sure that the other members are open to opinion from all quarters and that they can decide on the merits of any argument for themselves.

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
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Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: mickey]
      #14331 - 05/05/04 01:10 PM

mickey - If I may correct an inference that C&H guns were totally hand-made - they were not of course - only hand finished. C&H imported machinery from the USA to eliminate the tedious jig-filing that was the common practice back then.

This was to put guns onto the market at a considerable price advantage cpmpared to their competitors. Unfortunately they didn't make it completeley clear that the level of fit and finish, particularly internally was not up to the competitors standards.

My question about Coggie's shooting abilities was addressed to their Double Rifles, since it is hard to imagine that they could have spent the time on regulation, for the price.

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SaxonPig
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Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 5
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14371 - 06/05/04 04:35 AM

I freely admit that I am not an expert on English double rifles. That's why I asked for help. I can recognize that my rifle is not a top grade product. It has no embellishment or ornamentation. It does strike me a well-made gun even though it is not a fancy one. But then, this is the only DBR I have ever owned, so perhaps I am easily fooled? I can assure you that the fit and finish on this rifle is nice. No, it is certainly not up to the standard of a top quality H&H or Purdy, but I suspect the monetary values on the guns would reflect the difference between them. This rifle is now 94 years old, and has not been pampered, yet the bluing still looks nice save for the obvious wear in those areas where the gun was handled.

As for function, the action opens and closes smoothly and locks up tightly when closed. The trigger pull (pulls?) is decent and as I noted, the barrels appear to be regulated to within one inch at 100 yards despite your assertion that C&H didn't pay much attention to this detail.

You do not hold the maker of my gun in high regard. That is your right and in a discussion of the merits of one manufacturer versus another you would be quite correct in expressing your views and offering whatever evidence you have to support your position. However, taking my thread as an opportunity to air your contempt for C&H sort of suggests that you consider me to be foolish for owning one, no? Well, I assume your intent was an honest discussion and not personal slight, so it is water under the bridge as far as I am concerned.

On the matter of the caliber, again, I must confess to some ignorance on the English cartridges. But my rifle is, indeed, chambered for the .375 bore cartridge with a rimmed case of 2.5 inches in length. The case is straight-walled (well, it has a slight taper but no shoulder) and the rilfe is marked ".375 Nitro Express." Also stamped on the underside of the barrels is the load information, indicating a 270 grain bullet was used over a charge of 40 grains of Cordite.

I would still be interested in any opinions as to fair market value. I will see if I have a photograph of the rifle to post as some have stated it would help. Thanks.

OK, I found a photo. Not the best image, but I hope it helps. By the way, it does not have automatic ejectors.



Edited by SaxonPig (06/05/04 04:58 AM)

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mickey
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Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14376 - 06/05/04 06:34 AM

SaxonPig (you must explain that name sometime )

It is a nice looking rifle and a caliber that is often overlooked but very effective for Deer and such. I imagine that the rifle is fairly light and handy. I have seen a couple that have been rechambered for the 375FM, please don't be tempted to ruin your rifle by doing this.

Because of the lack of knowledge by most people on the caliber and the maker I would guess somewhere in the US$4500-5500 range. It is kind of broad but a bit more than the $1800 you bought it for.

Use it and enjoy.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14394 - 06/05/04 01:22 PM

Saxon Pig, calm down and take a deeep breath. That is a nice rifle you've got there. If I wasn't so much in the hole, I'd try to buy it.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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holland465
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 71
Loc: California
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14401 - 06/05/04 03:27 PM

To be perfectly honest I would never own another Holland!The one I have has been a real pain in the ass to put it mildly. I am kicking myself for ever selling my 476 Westley Richards and my 470 Rigby. Both of these rifles made the look very sad in the accuracy department. Both would shoot right and left barrels touching at 60 yards. The Holland will not come close to that kind of accuracy. I think the H&H is sold and trust me, I would never own another one.

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: holland465]
      #14402 - 06/05/04 04:44 PM

Holland,

Must say, I am surprised the hear that! While Holland's do have their downsides (nasty habit of shooting loose, for one!), I have never found them wanting in the accuracy department.

Are you sure it hasn't been monkeyed about with?

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holland465
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 71
Loc: California
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14404 - 06/05/04 05:04 PM

Any of them will move off of the face if fired enough. This rifle is just very unfriendly! It doubled on me twice and that really ruined my day. It kicks like an indignant camel and will not group as it should regardless of what it is fed. I will eventually find another Westley or Rigby and off this beast.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: SaxonPig]
      #14420 - 07/05/04 01:42 AM

SaxonPig

My opinion is a double rifle is worth what is it used for! But I try to be a user rather than a collector or aficianado.

I do like your double and in .375 2 1/2" it is a nice calibre. What a great calibre for mildly loaded big bore hunting. If the rifle was light enough to carry up and down mountains all day I would think it would make a classy sambar deer rifle and no doubt would do well on buffalo, cats and similar game. After all the load is so similar to a 9.3x74R and that is used a lot for such game.

I think you should be doubly (pun intended) happy to get it for such a price and even more so to recover it from dastardly (suitable word for double speak) thieves. A good story of one "that didn't get away" for once.

None of my guns is engraved in a fancy manner which is just as well if you knew how I treat the poor things. More incentive to use them the way they should be,

(PS I am also intrigued by your 'moniker'?)



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: holland465]
      #14446 - 07/05/04 10:59 AM

holland - can you really damn a "marque" because of the peccadillos of one rifle? Actually, the worst case of doubling I've come across was a Westley Richards .500 Nitro that had a nasty habit of metamorphosing into a .1000 Nitro occasionally. Admittedly, it was a "One Trigger" model, and they do have a reputation for giving problems when worn.

Nobody could fix it, not even the makers, and the owner eventually has it converted back to two triggers.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Loc: Idaho
Re: Can anyone offer an estimated market value? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14733 - 14/05/04 04:45 AM

I am not a fan of cogswell and Harrison rifles or shotguns, but many folks like them..Your gun appears to be in nice shape and based solely on what I see in the photograph I would put the value at $5000 to $5800. depending on bores etc. It would be a nice gun to keep IMO...Cheap old double rifles are a darn good investment if in good condition....

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