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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
My 1903 Take down model before and after
      #347656 - 09/12/20 06:34 AM

I was last year in a position to buy a 1903 take down model unseen at an auction. I post some photos that was send to me when I bought the rifle and some after some TLC. I did all work myself as I had time during our lock down period!
All i need is the right front stock lock pin. I recieved the rifle with the current pin. I have a gun smith friend who is willing to take a shot at making a new pin to specs... I have a M1910 model take down with an original pin that he can use a template... [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347657 - 09/12/20 06:36 AM

And after... [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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JDL
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Reged: 25/12/10
Posts: 252
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347665 - 09/12/20 09:59 AM

Wow, what a transformation! You sir do excellent work.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347672 - 09/12/20 12:19 PM

Quote:


All i need is the right front stock lock pin. I recieved the rifle with the current pin. I have a gun smith friend who is willing to take a shot at making a new pin to specs... I have a M1910 model take down with an original pin that he can use a template...





You may find this thread to be of interest: NitroExpress MS Forend Pin




Inch --- Millimeter --- # - Description
____________________________________________________________________

1.312 --- 33.32 --- 01) Overall Length

0.073 --- 01.86 --- 02) Thickness of head*

0.079 --- 02.00 --- 03) Head to Flange

0.032 --- 00.82 --- 04) Flange Thickness

0.187 --- 04.75 --- 05) Top of Head to Bottom of Flange

1.063 --- 27.00 --- 06) Flange to Radius at Bottom of Pin

0.445 --- 11.30 --- 07) Diameter of Head

0.251 --- 06.38 --- 08) Diameter of Flange

0.185 --- 04.70 --- 09) Diameter at Inside of Radius Between Head and Flange



Diameter of Pin:
0.197 --- 05.00 --- 10) At Flange

0.179 --- 04.54 --- 11) At 13.5mm Below Flange (mid-point to bottom radius)

0.165 --- 04.20 --- 12) At Start of Radius at Bottom of Pin


0.850 --- 21.60 --- 13) Center of Spring Pin to Flange

0.874 --- 22.20 --- 14) Bottom of Cut for Spring (to flange)

0.064 --- 01.62 --- 15) Thickness of Spring

0.065 --- 01.64 --- 16) Width of Slot for Spring

0.106 --- 02.70 --- 17) Notch in Spring (Catch)

0.221 --- 05.62 --- 18) Width of 'Push Pin' Face (Knurled)

0.092 --- 02.34 --- 19) Thickness of #18 at center (ends taper upward in a 'moon' shape)


*02) Underside of Head of Pin tapers downward toward center - thickness measured at edge where knurl begins. This is why #s 2+3+4 = less than #5


The plates mounted to the stock have holes of the following size for the pin to pass through (from right to left); Right Side - 5mm Left Side - 4.4mm .


Images from 1939 Stoeger Catalog:













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Waidmannsheil
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #347674 - 09/12/20 02:19 PM

Remember though that turning the basic pin is easy, anybody with a lathe can do that. The rounded knurl however will be impossible without a special knurling tool which would have been made by the factory specifically for that pin head size. You could just use a diamond knurl which is what most replacement pins have.
But the real tricky part is the spring which is small, awkward to hold without special jigs, must be hardened and tempered and a attached with a small pin.

This is why the guy in Austria that makes them, sells them at a fairly high price which in my view is completely justified.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #347676 - 09/12/20 03:42 PM

Thank you for the compliment JDL. I stripped the whole rifle, cleaned all the parts properly. Then took time to get all the old oil out of the stock. Then steamed out all the small dents, and then a light sanding, starting with 120grit all the way to 600grit.
Then came the Tru oil part... That takes time. The stock has about 6 coats on, after the 3rd coat i wet sand with 1200grit paper, leave it to dry and then the next coat Tru oil. If you want a matt finish, just use super fine steel wool after the last coat, but be careful not to apply pressure, as it will make streak marks, and then you need to start over again.
All the metal parts was lightly hot blued in a tank.

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347677 - 09/12/20 04:50 PM

Thanks Brian and Matt for the info re the pin. below is close up of the pin. will take it out of the rifle some time and post a photo. The other option is to just change the head of the current pin to match the original pin?
[image][/image] [image][/image]

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347682 - 09/12/20 07:52 PM

Vintage Canvas, congratulations on your rifle and on the superb restoration work that you did; I am sure a skilled professional would not have achieved a better result! By the way, I saw your M. 1903 was a 'Made in Austria' one, so post-WW1, but in which year was it manufactured?
I was also faced some years ago to a broken spring on a take-down pin; this is a common problem often encountered by MS addicts! I had the broken spring replaced in Austria; as above mentioned by Waidmannsheil it cost me an arm and a leg but the pin was professionally fixed, which was the result to achieve.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Louis]
      #347690 - 09/12/20 08:55 PM

Well done Vintage Canvas.

I am intrigued by your alias. If it relates to vintage canvas tents which you make? Please tell and show us, on a separate thread.

Maybe it is just an alias expressing a preference?

I liked the Rigby canvas tents they used in their shows, showing the Big Game Rifle, around the world. Reminiscent of the old vintage East African safari camp tents.

One of our members liked them as well and ordered a larger version for his collection of double rifles when in the bush. A suitable pavilion. I too liked the tents but NOT the price!!!

The "Rigby" ones were made by a UK located canvas tent maker.

so intrigued by your alias.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
Posts: 89
Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: NitroX]
      #347700 - 09/12/20 10:19 PM

Thanks Louis for the compliment. I am a bit of a newbie to rifle restoration, but like all things in life, patience is the most important thing and one must take your time. I also redone my MS1924 8x60S. Will post pics in a new post.
My M1903 was manufactured in 1924. See photo below.

[image]

[/image]

If im correct date is the "24" after the serial nr?
Maybe Kundae or Brian can help with more info on all the proof marks?

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347703 - 09/12/20 10:24 PM

John, regarding my Vintage Canvas name, I love all things old and vintage! As a hobby I manufacture vintage leather and canvas products, for all things hunting and shooting! From luggage to rifle slings, bags, slips, cartridge holders etc.
I also build canvas tents for safari camps and for temporary fly camps. I will make a new thread for the whole Vintage Canvas thing...

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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93x64mm
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Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347707 - 09/12/20 10:42 PM

Very nice work VC........very, very nice indeed!
You certainly have breathed life into that old girl for another 100 years or so!
It would be interesting to see your other canvas & leather work, I reckon you might find a Clientele list here.


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Louis
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Posts: 977
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: 93x64mm]
      #347715 - 10/12/20 04:33 AM

Thank you VC; it will be a pleasure to help with proof-marking within the coming days, if nobody has stepped in before! As already mentioned by 9,3x64, please do share more info or a weblink with regards to your canvas/leather work.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347727 - 10/12/20 10:32 AM

Quote:


My M1903 was manufactured in 1924. See photo below....

If im correct date is the "24" after the serial nr?
Maybe Kundae or Brian can help with more info on all the proof marks?




I'd be delighted to help.

First, that is not your rifle's serial number, and the suffix does not necessarily indicate the year the MS was manufactured, though it generally coincides. That suffix in combination with the 'Made in Austria' stamp on your receiver, however, removes all doubt and indicates that it was, indeed, made in 1924.


How to 'decode' an original pre WW2 Austrian proofed MS:



In the above image of an M1903, the '411', '.08', and Npv stamped on its receiver indicate the 411th arm to be 'nitro proofed' at Vienna during calendar year 1908.

The '4143' on the rifle's barrel is its serial number which is also visible at underside of receiver (in front of lug) and should be repeated inside stock and underside of bolt handle. The '3001' is a proof house registry number, followed by the aforementioned '411.08', though in a staggered arrangement.

'C6.5' on the above example (as on yours) indicates the 6.5mm MS cartridge, which identifies it as an M1903 (M1905- C9.0, M1908- C8,0, M1910- C9.5...).

The mark obscured by shadow at the underside of barrel is the script 'EV' of the 'first proof' at Vienna.



Barely visible on above image (underside of receiver) is a number used at the factory to match chamber depth of barrel to receiver. A corresponding number will be on the barrel, my M1910 shows '-15' and '+15'. Another mark often encountered is a small 'T' in a circle which indicates the type of steel used (tiegelgussstahl, or crucible steel). If marked 'Antinit' on the barrel it is a superior grade that was available as a 'cost option'.



Your M1903 shows '1685.24', indicating that it was proofed in 1924. The 'Made in Austria' on your front receiver ring is an additional indication that your example was also manufactured in 1924, as that roll stamp was added sometime during that year.

In addition to 'Made in Austria' indicating a receiver made in 1924 or later, your receiver's left side rail will be marked Osetrr Waffenfabr.- Ges. Steyr, which was changed to 'Steyr Werke AG' during 1926. From the Anschluss (1938 'Nazification' of Austria) through the end of WW2, limited production of MS continued which was stamped 'Made in Germany' on front receiver ring and bore German proofs rather than Austrian.


Stamp used from 1900 - 1926, changed during 1926 to 'Steyr Werke AG



1900 - 1924


1924 - 1938


1938 - 1945


Your MS was exported to (or through) Britain, as evidenced by the British London proofs which seem consistent with its 1924 manufacture. Does it have a 'NOT ENGLISH MAKE' stamp? If so, it was British proofed after August 03, 1925, per this excerpt from Mannlicher Collector's Assn. Newsletter #48:



If yours is not so marked, that suggests it may have been British proofed shortly after its 1924 manufacture, prior to August 03, 1925.


Your M1903





My 1922 proofed, British marketed, M1910 which Grand-Dad bought 'second hand' in Ceylon circa 1931 lacks the 'NOT ENGLISH MAKE' stamp. It is, however, stamped with the size (width) of projectile and maximum powder charge e.g.. '.375 Nitro Ex 43 - 270 CORDITE' to indicate the .375 Nirto Express Rimless loaded to 43 grains cordite with a 270 grain projectile.


Well, there it is... come to NitroExpress for a bite of information and get a plate full!



*** edit *** I suppose I should have included an asterisk and some sort of disclaimer such as;
"There are few or no firm rules to dating Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and stutzen. When you think you've found one, someone else will surely find the exception!"

It seems that much like Willys Overland, Kaiser, and AMC 'Jeep' production, whatever parts were in the bin on whatever given day were used as if to frustrate future cataloguers and historians.

The 'rules' are more like guidelines, it seems, never as easy as 'before serial number X it was like this and after serial number Y it's like that'. Such would just be too easy and the MS do have their mysteries.

I had originally posted that in response to a post about an apparently all original 'Made in Austria' stamped MS with a '39.' dated barrel.

Fortunately for the OP of this thread (Vintage Canvas), his is as 'straight forward' as it gets.
His has standard Austrian proofs of the same year that the rifle's 'Made in Austria' roll stamp was first used.


Edited by Rothhammer1 (10/12/20 07:49 PM)


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Rothhammer1
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347729 - 10/12/20 12:07 PM

Quote:

Thanks Brian and Matt for the info re the pin...The other option is to just change the head of the current pin to match the original pin?





Option 'b' may not be a bad idea, something on the 'if it works, don't fix it' plan.

It would look better knurled and with the screwdriver slot filled in. Given that you've already restored the finish a non original pin may not be much of an aberration. Frankly, there are very few people you'll run across that know what a proper MS Take Down Model forend pin does / does not look like, and it's absolutely your rifle.

Is it possible, however, to get a 'straw' finish on that ejector and magazine release button?

LugerForums Straw Restoration

What holds the pin in place? Will an original pin still fit properly or has the tapered hole been modified?

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #347744 - 10/12/20 03:03 PM

Hallo Brian
thank you very much for all the info! I does lack the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" stamp.
It all makes sense to me now! I can now also check all my other MS rifles! Would be interesting to see... I will post some photos later on a new thread.
Re the pin, I thing I'm just going to change the head to look like the original, but keep rest of pin as is, because it works and keep the barrel and stock securely in place and it stay in place. An original pin will not fit, as the tapered hole is now threaded for the replacement to screw in!

Re the restoration on the rifle... I know it is frown upon by the purists, but I like to restore objects to their former glory and a rifle must be appealing for me to look at and handle! I do use all my rifles to hunt with! I develop loads for them and try to shoot them regularly. There is still a relative number of MS rifles around in SA, and to find an unmolested one that was not restored or with all its parts is possible! Though, I still have to find one with the original cleaning rods in place.
See photos below of my MS1924 on a recent hunt..

[image]

[/image]

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347754 - 10/12/20 06:13 PM

Quote:

Hallo Brian
thank you very much for all the info! I does lack the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" stamp...

Re the restoration on the rifle... I know it is frown upon by the purists, but I like to restore objects to their former glory and a rifle must be appealing for me to look at and handle! ...There is still a relative number of MS rifles around in SA, ...I still have to find one with the original cleaning rods in place.
See photos below of my MS1924 on a recent hunt..






With your Austrian proof date, 'Made in Austria' on bridge, and London proofs yet lacking "NOT ENGLISH MAKE", I'd be very confident to say your M1903 was manufactured in 1924, Vienna proofed in 1924, then exported new to (or through) London prior to August 03, 1925. Perhaps it thence traveled to South Africa, but perhaps not directly? Who can say where it may have been between, what adventures it may have seen over nearly a century since it was born.

Thus the romance of a fine, old Mannlicher Schoenauer.

Per the restoration - if it were mine I would not have reblued it nor sanded the stock, but it's your rifle, your prerogative, you've done a lovely job and it better suits your purpose; or shoots your porpoise if you prefer.

My M1910 Takedown Model was my Grandfather's and I would not 'restore' anything on it unless it were to become necessary somehow. Its only alterations have been the (period) claw mounting of a Gerard B 4X scope and when some fool (me) drilled the sling swivel mounting studs wider to accept detachable swivels a few decades ago. It has the 'special folding peep' sight option as offered in the '39 Stoeger and a removable grip cap that was not. It has its original fitted case.


Phantom view, MS w/ grip cap storage


'Special folding peep' - original 'cost option'.


My takedown case is nearly identical to this, yet (sadly) lacks its label.

I'm sure you're right about using the existing pin in your M1903 TD's forend. If it fits and properly holds all together, I wouldn't muck with it much as the original configuration has been altered and an original pin may fit loosely. Aside from 'major coolness factor' (yes, I was raised in the San Fernando Valley) the only real purpose of the feature was to reduce the rifle's bulk during travel whence it would be 'taken down' to be fitted in its travel case or a piece of luggage.

I've heard tell that there are many M1910 MS in Suid Afrika and that several people still use them regularly, as does NE member Kuduae in Deutschland.

Reproduction cleaning rods can be found on the 'net, some quite nice. They came originally in four or five piece sets. I am fortunate to have the originals in my M1910.



Your 'Made in Austria stamp on the barrel of the 'M1924' is very interesting. I have only seen images of a few such marked rifles, one an Anschluss era German proofed rebarrel dated 1939. The location and font style are somewhat reminiscent of the 'Sequoia' stamp on the original M1924 model.

Your 8X60 'Magnum' is not actually, however, a 'pure' M1924. The original M1924 was the 'Sequoia', built on a new and longer action than preceding models to accommodate the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906', or .30-'06, for export to the Sequoia Importing Company who would distribute them in the U.S.. The M1924 was also the first with the magazine guide ring and reshaped bolt release. The 'Sequoia' did not sell as well as planned and many were converted to metric chamberings and sold in Europe.

In short, 'M1924' designated a rifle or stutzen of a certain 'caliber' (.30-'06) just as an M1903 was 6.5X54, an M1910 9.5X57, et. al.. The reconfigured M1924 and later production pieces Stoeger called 'High Velocity' had no M19xx stamping on the bridge at all, just the 'Kaliber' designation. The dated series would resume with M1950, but was not then specific to any particular chambering as several were offered.



Sequoia importing - "Sole North American Factory Agents...


Guide ring added to magazine (M1910 at left, M1924 right) -this made possible use of cartridges with projectiles of various shapes and lengths without jamming (photo swiped from Kuduae)


By the way, to ensure flawless feeding through your M1903 Schoenauer magazine (no guide ring), build your 6.5X54 like this:




Production continued on the new sized action, however, in several different 'calibers', up to 10.75X68 through WW2 alongside the M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910. Stoeger ("sole U.S. importer" from about 1927 forward) referred to these as the 'High Velocity' models, collectors tend to refer to them as 'M1925' though Steyr never did.


'High Velocity' offerings in 1939 Stoeger


Original M1924 Sequoia, Steyr factory restamp ('M1925')


Grand Dad (John F. Easton) with M1910 Take Down Model
I still have the cat's claws in the MS' fitted case - the leopard pelt and sola topi (pith helmet) having long since decayed

The photo you posted in the above post with MS outstretched before you looks rather nostalgic to me. The view looks very much like the Northern Arizona area where I formerly lived and Jeeped about in a '48 Willys mit der Mannlicher Schoenauer M1910 TD.

Enjoy!


Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #347902 - 14/12/20 07:16 AM

Hi Brian
I will try and get a set of cleaning rods for 4 MS rifles. If you see some online, please let me know.
Yes there is some M1910 rifles but they become scarce now. I am lucky to find a take down model, as most is the non take down models. Brass is unfortenately a problem! And die sets! I cant find anywhere in SA!

Re the photo of the 8x60S in the field, it was on a eland hunt not far from my home in the Karoo. The vegetation in this specific area is not like the rest of the area, hence it might look allot like North Arizona... I guess the climate is also the same! Warm summers and cold winters with low rainfall?
Perfect terrain for walk and stalk type of hunt!

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Rothhammer1
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347919 - 14/12/20 01:35 PM

Quote:

Hi Brian
I will try and get a set of cleaning rods for 4 MS rifles. If you see some online, please let me know... Brass is unfortenately a problem! And die sets! I cant find anywhere in SA!...




I don't know what you can have shipped to SA, but I have always had flawless results from the RCBS two die set that I purchased decades ago and properly headstamped new brass is available from Quality Cartridge: https://www.qual-cart.com/375%20cal.htm

Here are some Redding dies listed (though presently 'unavailable') at a SA dealer's site, but at the equivalent price of nearly $350.00 USD (ZAR 5,250.00).

This set is identical to the ones I have used: https://www.gunauction.com/buy/8044051

A thread with some discussion regarding MS cleaning rods, as well as some lovely photos of member Louis' M1905: NitroExpress
I have seen them offered, and images of originals, in four or five piece sets. My M1910 TD Model has an original five piece set, each segment measuring 17.5cm.


Original 5 piece cleaning rod set, M1910

These rather nice reproduction four piece sets have been available for a couple of years via Gunbroker (U.S.): MS Rods



I've long been curious as to which MS were originally equipped with four piece rod sets and which with five. Perhaps I should start a thread to survey NE members and guests regarding their 'believed to be original' MS rod sets broken down by model, barrel length, proof date, four or five piece set, length of segments... . The 'likely original' five piece set with my 1922 proofed, 60 cm barreled, M1910 TD was in it when Grand Dad bought it at Ceylon in 1932. With all five of the 17.5 cm segments assembled it is 87.5 cm.




*** Link to a post from a year ago where member Lawman purchased a four piece set for $85. USD and liked them: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/printthre...amp;type=thread

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Edited by Rothhammer1 (14/12/20 03:36 PM)


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Loc: Western Cape, South Africa
Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #347959 - 15/12/20 03:58 PM

Brian, thank you for the info on the die sets! I have been looking and phoning around! Nobody stock them, even if they show them on their website! The best answer that i get is to try and find a used set...
to ship die sets, bullets and brass is a problem! From the US a no-go!
Re the rods i cant help with any info, as none of my MS rifles came with rods! But i would like to hear and see what the guys come up with on your other thread!
I'm thinking of making them myself, if i can get one original set to use as a sample!

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Rothhammer1
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Re: My 1903 Take down model before and after [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #347963 - 15/12/20 08:32 PM

Quote:

Brian, thank you for the info on the die sets! I have been looking and phoning around! Nobody stock them, even if they show them on their website! The best answer that i get is to try and find a used set...






I wonder, as there seem to be a lot of M1910 rifles and stutzen in use there, if you could find a fellow South African MS shooter who would be willing to loan out dies for some sort of swap or deal?

Perhaps furnish the dies' owner with a box of finished cartridges?









































--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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