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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets
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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
Posts: 189
Loc: Vic, Australia
Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP
      #241233 - 27/01/14 12:48 AM

I had an Ideal type, adjustable, base pour type mold made in .423, PP projectiles for the .404
Am getting ideas ,since I've found how easy it is to make a GC maker and use soda cans to punch out GC's, to make GC for this PB CB design
Question is
Lubing?
Parallel sided , no grease groove projectile
should I squirt some Lee Alox, or use a milk carton/dental sheet wax 'over powder' lube wad?
Plan is to run the 350gr CB at about 15-700 hundred FPS MAX

TIA

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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Huvius
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: eljefedouble]
      #241238 - 27/01/14 02:05 AM

I think that if 1500-1700fps is your target velocity, you probably wont need a gas check.
I would suggest you look up information on powder coating cast bullets. Also, there has been a lot of experimentation with high temp epoxy coating bullets as of late which more or less accomplishes the same thing.

Are you swaging the base for the check or covering full diameter and pushing them through the sizer?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: Huvius]
      #241256 - 27/01/14 06:23 AM

You can also try the moly coating the bullets. Lyman sells a decent one that used to be called MS Moly - same spray can, different label.
Some guys coat jacketed bullets in a tumbler with the moly powder.
Spray or tumbling, either works and might work perfectly on the smooth sided bullets.
Now - what diameter are the bullets. Most PP moulds cast undersize to allow for the paper patching.

With paper, you only need a small amount of lube rubbed onto the paper - even graphite powder will work with smokeless powders - your aluminum gas check should keep the base from distortion or melting. The paper patched bullets can also be sprayed with the aerosol moly.

Need more information about your bullets, diameters, methods of patching, diameter after patching, etc.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: DarylS]
      #241274 - 27/01/14 09:46 AM

eljefedouble
When loading with trailboss, my .404 averages 1380fps with 28gn for a full case & a 400+gn cast, so the 350gn should get well over the 1400fps - not sure if this load will be fast enough for you?
As a rule I don't lube my PP rounds in my .500, these are doing about 1580fps with duplex BP loads.
I don't get leading & the paper appears cut cleanly into ribbons.
Daryl, please correct me if I'm wrong, but do you really need lube on PP's especially if using BP?
regards
93x64mm

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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: Huvius]
      #241281 - 27/01/14 02:18 PM

Quote:

I think that if 1500-1700fps is your target velocity, you probably wont need a gas check.
I would suggest you look up information on powder coating cast bullets. Also, there has been a lot of experimentation with high temp epoxy coating bullets as of late which more or less accomplishes the same thing.

Are you swaging the base for the check or covering full diameter and pushing them through the sizer?



I did try some high temp epoxy , but am unable to get bake .Looking for a Oven toaster, but all on hold, as I may need to change houses, and re set up 'shop' soon.
I used the Duplicolour hi temp black spray on a mate's .452/230 Lee TL projjies.They needed a 200F bake for 2 hours-didnt withstand the acetone or sizing test completely. I did lose flakes on sizing.BUT no leading.

for my 404's, plan to enclose the base completely,havent got a sizer modified for them yet.
Am enclosing pics of the projectiles.

If the suggested velocity is safe enough,I may try out a few unchecked, tempted to try a wax/cardboard overpowder wad too. Can never tinker enough...

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: 93x64mm]
      #241282 - 27/01/14 02:23 PM

Quote:

eljefedouble
When loading with trailboss, my .404 averages 1380fps with 28gn for a full case & a 400+gn cast, so the 350gn should get well over the 1400fps - not sure if this load will be fast enough for you?
As a rule I don't lube my PP rounds in my .500, these are doing about 1580fps with duplex BP loads.
I don't get leading & the paper appears cut cleanly into ribbons.
Daryl, please correct me if I'm wrong, but do you really need lube on PP's especially if using BP?
regards
93x64mm



Bazza
These are going to be plinking,small game loads , using Red dot or Blu dot.I must trial Trail boss
What mould are you using for your .404?
I do smear a bit of lanolin on the paper jacket when I size my 7x57mm.Clean separation.lets see what Daryl has to say about PP & Blackpowder.
Cheers

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: DarylS]
      #241285 - 27/01/14 02:39 PM

Quote:

You can also try the moly coating the bullets. Lyman sells a decent one that used to be called MS Moly - same spray can, different label.
Some guys coat jacketed bullets in a tumbler with the moly powder.
Spray or tumbling, either works and might work perfectly on the smooth sided bullets.
Now - what diameter are the bullets. Most PP moulds cast undersize to allow for the paper patching.

With paper, you only need a small amount of lube rubbed onto the paper - even graphite powder will work with smokeless powders - your aluminum gas check should keep the base from distortion or melting. The paper patched bullets can also be sprayed with the aerosol moly.

Need more information about your bullets, diameters, methods of patching, diameter after patching, etc.



Daryl,
The mould drops them at 350 gr with the pin extended in the OUT position, and when pushed IN, depth minimum, its 250 gr
Alloy is 4:1- Pure Lead: Chilled shot for a stated BHN of about 10
I'll upload a few pics later when I can, the dia is miking as 0.4225
havent PP them yet...Just got the mold back in its Mk3 avatar, after more tweaking.I think I'll stop here.
My first attempt to 'design' a mold, if you excuse the blasphemy...







--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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93x64mm
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: eljefedouble]
      #241291 - 27/01/14 04:25 PM

Asif

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: 93x64mm]
      #241292 - 27/01/14 04:45 PM

Asif - try that again take 2!
My mould is from Davis Commons of CBE.
The 21gn Red Dot load comes from Von Gruff & Eagle27 in NZ. This does 1400fps+ with the 350gn pill, again stepping this up slightly will give you the extra oomph, but 63gn of AR2209 with a 25mm foam wad gets about 1930fps. Von Gruff's pills are 90% WW & 10% lino from memory & have got gas checks.
Loading for the .500NE in duplex.....God its a PAIN!
Have to crack 1600fps barrier for the Nationals in Maryborough - bit more testing to do, will let you know how I go!
I'm lubing these PP this time, need to keep more detailed reloading notes, I've cracked it once before just got to repeat my tests until I hit on what I did initially...Oh well burn a bit more powder!
Cheers
Baz

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Oldbrit
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Reged: 04/04/10
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: 93x64mm]
      #241300 - 27/01/14 08:54 PM

Eljefedouble..

This thread may be of relevance....

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post226944

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: Oldbrit]
      #241320 - 28/01/14 03:40 AM

I rub my fairly soft BP lube (BW/Vas - 60:40 or is it 40:60?) on the patch. Why? - this was suggested by Paul Mathews in 'The Paper Jacket" book he wrote. It helps the bullet start into the rifling without grabbing or tearing the patch- I think he noted. I did it and still would, although I'm shooting grooved lubricated bullets now.

Hardening up the alloy a bit with Antimony might increase the bullet's diameter enough to seal- if the groove diameter is .423". With only 10 brinel bullets, I'd most definitely have a base wad of some sort, but note,t hat was MUST be on the bullet's base, not down inside the case below the base.

Smokeless powders usually don't cause enough obturation to seal with undersized bullets - but trying it is the only way to find out for sure, with your load.

I would initially spray the bare lead bullets with moly spray - that might be all that's needed for lube - quite simple & the easiest method by far.

Dropping from the mould at .422", for a .423" groove diameter, will, if patched in paper, run them up to over .434" ((with .003" paper) or so and require quite a sizing operation to get them back to groove diameter or just over. If using "onion skin" paper, at .0015", the major diameter after patching should be around .428" (2 wraps) and require less sizing. If having to size down a paper patched bullet, the lube on the outside will help that operation.

With one rifle we worked with, masking tape, one wrap proved very accurate and was VERY easy to apply, using an exacto knife to cut the tape on the start of the first layer. The slight cut in the bullet's side made NO difference to the accuracy. That rifle made 1 1/2 MOA (3") at 200yards off bags with it's tang and globe front sight - using black powder loads - with pure lead bullets. The 'taped' (patched) bullets came out at exactly bore size and relied entirely on obturation to take and seal the rifling. Note that this much obturation usually only works well with black powder loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
Posts: 189
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: DarylS]
      #241371 - 28/01/14 06:53 PM

Masking tape...that's a new one!
Thanks Daryl for the info, lets see what works out.Will keep you all posted.
Cheers

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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gungadoug
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Reged: 13/08/12
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Loc: NM
Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: eljefedouble]
      #244605 - 29/03/14 11:51 PM

Info on the home made gas check setup would be appreciated!
Doug

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: gungadoug]
      #244621 - 30/03/14 05:22 AM

Here's something else that works:
The left mould is the RCBS mould converted to a HP, then back to flat nose. I also turned out the gas check rebate for a flat base. The nose plug can be removed and a pin with knob used for HP cast bullets, again.
The right mould was a 450gr. Lyman (casting 473gr.) original-type .50/70 mould. It was just a bit long for the 42" twist, so I shortened it using a HP-type plunger to cast a 420gr. bullet. At .720" length, it worked fine int he Sharps 50-70 barrel's 42" twist.



Some bullets made from ctg. brass.
.375's from shortened .223 - at 350gr. The expanded bullet went through close to 3' of aspen lengthwise. I've lost the 200gr. .358" bullets made for my .358 Norma Mag that made close to 2' in the aspen. The first foot of 7" aspen round hit, split into 2 pieces when with the 200gr. .358.

480gr. .457's from rim-turned .303 as well as shortened and sized down .30/06 brass. The heavily expanded bullet from an '06 case had a pure lead core. The longer expanded bullet was from .303 brass and was cast with a WW core. It made another 4" of penetration in the -40F frozen green fir railway bed tie, even though it hit 2 large knots that were like glass. The large expanded bullet had a rope of end fibre the length of the penetration wound up in front of it, pushing tie wood ahead in an enlarging, permanent wound channel. I was amazed as seeing this, grabbing the end of the fibers with a pair pliers, unwinding and straightening them out right back within 3/8" of the surface where the bullet first hit. The wound channel stopped with the bullet having a 1 1/2" diameter hole in front of it made by the pushed wood fibers. Tough stuff. IIRC, the bullet lost less than 50gr. The hard core bullet lost about the same but with a smaller wound channel. Impact velocity was 2,040fps.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: DarylS]
      #251915 - 11/08/14 08:21 AM

I have been experimenting with a 32-40, using an existing Martini Cadet barrel, that slugs at .320" at the muzzle.
I made a plain, nose pour mould and the boolit is 180g, cast from 30-1, Pb-Sn alloy. Nice and soft.
I tumble lube the slick boolit, in 45-45-10 LLA-Beees wax-Turps, lube. Some I knurled, by rolling them under a bastard file, on a wooden surface. They don't shoot any better than smooth lubed boolits.
Warm everything up and tumble, then let dry on baking paper. The lube is quite hard and very thin.

My top pour PP style mould, 3 knurled boolits on left and 3 straight out of the mould.

I have also tried a .320" ball load, but the Nobels powder I used, was bad and didn't burn well.


This 4 round target was shot at 50m. Rifle was fitted with a Red dot sight.
Load is 8g of ADI AP70, behind the 180g tumble lubed slick. Estimated speed is 1350fps.


I fired the last three rounds that I had left, at a target at 100 yds and the group measured 1.2"
I consider this experiment a resounding success

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: AFRO408]
      #251917 - 11/08/14 09:34 AM

absolutely!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: DarylS]
      #251936 - 11/08/14 08:03 PM

Great Job, daryl and Afro!
A quick question,
I just made a MkII version of the mould for the .404. Pics will be up soon, I burnt my hand smelting about 30kg of WW and used airgun slugs -Guess who's a happy camper?
The .425 bullets were dropping at 380gr,@.425" just what I had planned.
I'll have to tweak the .286" a bit to get the weight down from 190 gr to 145

What I found was, the moulds were a bit overengineered, with an 8mm MS 'round' handle and a 3mm sprue plate
I was losing heat and had to keep the mould constantly heated { material is 4140, I told you, over engineered } how do you find the C clamp and other accoutrements affecting the heat sinking?

Gungadoug-Saw this post late, apologies , is it the general design you're lookig for , or a specific caliber? I'll dig out the drawings .
Cheers

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Loc: Arding NSW
Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: eljefedouble]
      #251974 - 12/08/14 10:03 AM

Sounds like there is not enough metal in the mould to keep the heat in.
I make my mould bodies from 32mm dia 1045 steel and the top and bottom plates, are 5mm thick. They hold the heat well, even in the 50cal mould.
These are the moulds I had here for a while?

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: AFRO408]
      #251976 - 12/08/14 11:00 AM

Quote:

Sounds like there is not enough metal in the mould to keep the heat in.
I make my mould bodies from 32mm dia 1045 steel and the top and bottom plates, are 5mm thick. They hold the heat well, even in the 50cal mould.
These are the moulds I had here for a while?



Yup, same ones, had the chamfer removed, sprue plate & handle added, maybe I need to do it in a warm shed, and keep mold well heated. Projjies have wrinkles, indicative of 'cold mold syndrome'
will have another go this weekend after I reduce the depth/height of the .286 mold to keep projjie weight at 145-150gr.

@ Gungadoug The GC maker - see thread on castboolits,Link added
Easy one,all specs given.3 step, whackamollee type

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150997-hand-tool-made-check-maker

progressing to a 'press mounted type'

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236273-Another-GC-maker

For the skilled machinist-or any one who is not all thumbed,left handed ,like me!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?101816-DIY-check-maker-book

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200965-Easy-to-build-gas-checkmaker

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: eljefedouble]
      #251978 - 12/08/14 11:30 AM

Cold mould or cold "melt" - ie: melt too cold to cast good bullets.

Usually, I pre-heat my moulds on top of the furnace, then flux the metal, then start casting. I've learned when everything is ready to go (should use a thermometer, but don't) and usually cast perfect bullets right off the bat.

Cold melt is much more often the problem than a cold mould, especially when you are pouring molten metal into it. The usual scenario is mould too hot, not too cold. I've never had a mould run cold.

Even my single cavity .50 cal mould will run hot if casting quickly.

This is a batch of .45 cal bullet fro my Sharps- from the first to last - good bullets - none to throw back.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eljefedouble
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Reged: 23/04/06
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: DarylS]
      #252409 - 20/08/14 12:42 PM

HOw do those spitzers perform,Daryl?

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Using PB projectiles designed for PP, as GC non PP [Re: eljefedouble]
      #252448 - 21/08/14 01:33 AM

The pointed bullet is the Schmitzer bullet Lyman #457658DV - designed for long range shooting, with a BC in the .4's. It is amazingly accurate at 506gr. in my alloy, just as the Lyman RN #457125, is amazingly accurate. They shoot virtually identically in my 18" twist 35" GM barrel's Sharps.

A week ago, I was out at the range with a friend who was getting his Rolling Block ready for rendezvous this coming week. His last loads tested came together - 60gr. 2f GOEX (.100" compression), wax-paper disk, 1/8" SPG lube wad, wax paper disk, 525gr. RN(#457125) (30:1), the bullet lubed with SPG as well.

2 consecutive groups off the bags at 100 meters - both were 1.5" centre to centre - shot dirty - no blowing between shots. ALL the fouling pushed out the bore with one dry patch. Len has an inexpensive tang sight coupled with an inexpensive Lyman aperture front.

Note the large capacity square grease grooves on both bullets designed specifically for shooting black powder. Of course, they work well with smokeless powders as well, but usually require an un-side-down gas check (cup-down on powder) or a 1/10" hard card wad for it's base protection.

The pointed bullets (& RN's) shoot 1" to 1.5" in my own Sharps (apertures), loaded identically to the above load listed, except I use Swiss 1 1/2F powder now. I used to use GOEX with the same accuracy results at 100 meters, however the shot to shot strings are closer with Swiss powder, thus the long range accuracy has the potential to be much improved.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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