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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double?
      #90999 - 09/12/07 05:32 AM

Somebody please inform the ignorant(me)--

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=1087

Saw this WR Double on Champlins site and it speaks of a Dolls head 3rd bite. No pictures are seen from above the gun.Other WR Doubles I have seen have not had this feature. Is this similar to the Webley 3rd fastener and if different how is it different? Does it make the gunbetter than other WR's??

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #91006 - 09/12/07 06:07 AM

Doll's heads, by their shape, can only prevent the action from pulling straight back off the barrels, or the barrels from moving straight ahead off the action face. The barrel lugs and hinge pin prevent this movement from happening. A doll's head will not even start to prevent a double's action from coming off face. It can't, as it's shape allows the barrels to move in exactly the direction it is suppose to stop. I can se no benefit with a doll's head. I suppose it can correct sloppy lugs from allowing the barrels to swing left and right when in the locked positon, - probably why they're on Belgium guns.[;)]

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: DarylS]
      #91007 - 09/12/07 06:44 AM

But this rifle mentioned has a bite in the dolls head to make the third bite. It will be alot more rigid than just the dolls head as Daryl S mentioned. It can almost be seen in the first picture.

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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: DarylS]
      #91017 - 09/12/07 07:52 AM

Quote:

Doll's heads, by their shape, can only prevent the action from pulling straight back off the barrels, or the barrels from moving straight ahead off the action face. The barrel lugs and hinge pin prevent this movement from happening. A doll's head will not even start to prevent a double's action from coming off face. It can't, as it's shape allows the barrels to move in exactly the direction it is suppose to stop. I can se no benefit with a doll's head. I suppose it can correct sloppy lugs from allowing the barrels to swing left and right when in the locked positon, - probably why they're on Belgium guns.[;)]



Entirely false.

In answer to your question, Doc, the doll's head and third bite referred to in the link is the Westley Richards "C Type". It was used in Westley Richards' original 1875 patent for the legendary Anson & Deeley body action (boxlock) gun, and is still in use today. While this type third fastener engages the doll's head, it slides fore and aft and is retracted by the top lever, while the screw grip locks by rotating against a beveled extension on the doll's head. Most Westley double rifles have a doll's head and third fastener, but not all are of this type.

Today, the A & D boxlocks that use the C-type doll's head and sliding top bolt that we're used to seeing are accompanied by a Scott spindle that actuates Purdey's double underlug bolts, and that's how Westley builds them today. There's an interesting facet of the original patented A & D design though. In the original A & D boxlock patent, and as originally manufactured by Westley Richards, lock-up was accomplished ONLY by the C-type doll's head and sliding top bolt - THERE WERE NO UNDERLUGS. Westley built a fair number of guns and rifles on the original design before the underlugs, Scott Spindle and Purdey bolts were incorporated into it, and they were nothing if not successful. The A & D is the most wildly successful double gun design of all time. Although I think the later Webley type is better, the C-type is a good design.

Unless it's a screw-grip, I care little if a double rifle has a third fastener or not. I wouldn't want a full nitro double rifle that didn't have a doll's head or top extension of some kind though.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
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Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91020 - 09/12/07 08:59 AM

400 NE--

Thanks much!!

You really need to compile a synopsis of your thoughts and impressions on vintage Doubles.Thanks much for your technical insights,builder info, and ways to assess these rifles.

I really enjoy your posts!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91024 - 09/12/07 10:13 AM

Agree,,,your knowledge is awesome on the history of doubles..great posts...thank you

When looking at the double in question, IMHO, one negative on this gun is the "single" trigger..personally I would not have a double with that configuration..I know Westley built quite a few of these,,but I will take the two triggers..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: Ripp]
      #91068 - 09/12/07 06:25 PM

I know nothing about DRs & this site is my training class room! Thanks for the great posts.

I did handle a pair of WR rifles built in 1960's for the Maharaja of Cooch Bihar. The rifles were bought by my mate's father-in-law to be. The 280 was a double trigger made for the Maharani & I used it on a beat shoot in 1976 (never fired it). The 476 was a single trigger with a barrel selector next to the trigger that needed to be switched before the second shot. I am not sure if that was a very practical design. I suppose one needed to practice a lot with that particular rifle to switch the selector as soon as the first shot is fired. My $0.02 FWIW.

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

Edited by Nakihunter (10/12/07 08:41 AM)

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: DarylS]
      #92109 - 20/12/07 06:00 AM

What you said about a doll's head NOT being able to prevent action from moving backward, away from barrels is not true! Should an action attempt to break or stretch, the doll's head, if tight fitting, should prevent that from happening, especially if it has bite through doll's head, same thing is done by Greener crossbolt. All actions, upon being fired, will spring so slightly, very briefly, to the rear, but will spring back (this is normal for even modern steel alloy used in action building). If stress, upon firing, is too great, the metal will fail and not spring back, but will stretch or break, and a doll's head attempts to help that from happening. Best, Jack

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unspellable
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Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #92272 - 21/12/07 09:31 AM

While there is some debate as to whether a doll's head or third bite is needed or not, the legitimate debate revolves around the questiuon of whether or not the action has adequate strength without it. The part that is not in question is whether or not the doll's head will stiffen the action.

A well fitted doll's head WITHOUT a third bite (As I've seen on a Jeffery) will tie the breach to the face. Under firing stress the barrels tend to rotate around a different center than when opening the action. Thus, the doll's head grips even without a bite. I have seen some excellent diagrams to illustrate how this works.

Also consider those shotguns that lack what we usually think of as the first two bites and have only what we usually think of as a third bite. Obviously, if a third bite did nothing, they would fly apart on firing.

The caveat for any of the three bites is that they must be well fitted. If not, the load will not be shared among the three and at least one will be doing nothing. (Something I have suspected is the case with some cheap shotguns I've seen with three bites.)

Greener was never afraid to blow his own horn and had a very good demonstration of how his cross bolt type third bite stiffened the action.

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Dolls Head 3rd BIte on a WR Double? [Re: unspellable]
      #92292 - 21/12/07 11:44 AM

If a single trigger WR DR required you to switch the selector to fire the second barrel then the trigger mechanism was defective. What you were doing was manually engaging the second set of tumblers that should have automatically set once the first barrel was fired. The selector is only designed to determine which barrel is fired first.

Regards

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