Rip,

It only takes one elephant to have more than a ton of experience! About five tons of experience per, I think!

Sticking only to recent published "book loads" 2250fps is possible from a 458wm shooting 500grs out of a 24" barrel. AA2230 is one powder that will do this. See the Hotnaday book, current loads are the same as the previuos manual. This manual was recommended to me by Woodleigh, btw.

My test in winter and in summer with AA2230 show the powder to be pretty temperature insensative, delivering about the same velocity despite 50* or 60*F differences in temps, and also when the gun and ammo are left lying out in +95*F sunny days to heat up.

Also, some pressure test done on my behalf showed that most of the standard 458wm ammo - not the Hornaday Heavy Magnum load - is loaded well below SAAMI specs. My loads, 500grs at 2145fps, out of 26" barrels, is well below max, but over some of the slow factory stuff. I understand, but cannot confirm, that Euro ammo loaded to CIP specs allows a hotter loading.

I wouldn't load a 458wm to 2250fps with 500grs. No need imo. If I had a bolt rifle I would go to 2175-2200fps though. I have a Lott, but that one would be loaded to the similar velocities and not towrd 2300fps if I were to take it elephant hunting. I think a double rifle and elephant hunting go hand in hand. The ultimate choice for the ultimate game and the only situation where, imo, the double shows no real disadvantge and the next choice does and is significantly less than optimal. The more so the thicker the bush. The lions share of the bolt rifle using PH's seem to agree with this too.

For penetration, I'll always refer to Sectional Density and velocity. Two similar solid bullets, say Woodleighs, of equal sectional density will penetrate equally if velocity is equal. Add penetration by adding velocity. A 500gr .458" bullet will yeild better penetration than either a 400 or 410gr .416" bullet given equal velocity because of the higher SD, but when velocity isn't equal... I trade the added penetration of the 416 for the added thump of the 458. I think this is the way to go since the penetration of the 500grers at 2145fps has never been close to wanting. For more penetration, and no visibly less thump the flat nose .458" 450's would and do get my call. I think history is on my side.

When it comes to report of penetration failure with the big NE's, first I always wonder what the bullet was, an old cupro nickel jacketed or a newer Woodleigh steel jacketed, then I wonder about the velocity, then I wonder about the shot angle... Given my experience with two elephants shot with 500grers at 2050fps, I have to think that problems arise in the first two, either the bullet or the velocity, meaning that someone shot old ammo with cupro nickel jackets or it wasn't up to the century plus old, tried and true standard and someone tried to shave some recoil by loading down.

Don't forget, when thinking of bullet length, the work of some fellows, including, I believe, 500 Grains, on rifle twist and solid bullet stability and penetration in game. The same bullets at greater spin rates produce greater penetration in game. Corrally?, "Longer bullets need more twist to equal the penetration of shorter bullets, given the same velocity?" The Rigby is a slow twist relative, I think the Rem is much fater twist.

Fun debate, and without the acrimony and personal attacks that some debates, especially on other forums, devolve to.

JPK