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From: Nitro (Original Message) Sent: 9/8/2002 12:35 AM
Is there a need for "high velocity" big bores for hunting?

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I was thinking recently about various Big Bores and their application for hunting. When the Nitro Express cartridges were first introduced they were revolutionary for their "astounding" high velocities, lighter jacketed bullets, and lesser recoil when fired, yet being more effective than the existing "bore" cartridges and other rounds.

The introduction of the .375 H&H Magnum likewise was a lightning bolt revolutionising the big game hunting scene.

In the last few years, many of the old cartridges have seen a resurgence of sorts, as it was realised that they strangely were STILL effective (after all the game animals haven't suddenly gained armour plate).

But in the last few years a raft of new cartridges has been introduced, the Remington Ultra Magnums, the Dakotas, many wildcats to add to the Weatherby big bore magnums.

All these cartridges push bullets at increased velocities for supposed increased effectiveness.

But is this the case? IMO the relevant points:

Has the design of premium big game bullets kept pace with the introduction of the ultra velocity big bore "magnums"? I do not believe so. There is a considerable amount of evidence that most or many premium bullets are most effective at a velocity of approximately 2,400 fps. Indeed many damgerous game bullets are designed to function the best at 2,000 to 2,400 fps. Pushing them faster may actually lessen performance.
When hunting dangerous game it is usually considered sensible to close the range to under 100 yards and ofte well less to 40 yards or less. Elephant are usually shot at these sorts of ranges by trophy hunters. So what benefit does the big bore shooter get by pushing their heavy to calibre bullet at an additional 200 to 600 fps?
Most people agree that increasing calibre size with the appropriate heavier bullet is more effective than pushing a bullet faster in the lighter calibre. The larger bullet will create a wider wound channel, and if of a suitable sectional density out-penetrate the smaller calibre especially if bone or heavy muscle is encountered.
The larger bore size is usually considered better if less than ideal shots are made - in "thumping" the large animal and stopping it or dropping it even if an killing shot is not made - the smaller calibre may appear to have little effect. The larger calibre if stopping the animal may allow time for a second killing shot.
If you take two rifles of different calibres - one say a 375 or 416 ultra velocity pushing a 300 gr or 400 gr bullet at higher velocity. The other a 458 or 500 pusing a 500 to 570 gr bullet at a more moderate velocity. If the recoil is similar, which would you prefer to have, and which is more effective in a dangerous game charge? Giving considertion to if recoil is similar both will have the same recoil recovery time.

Just some of my thoughts.

Does anyone agree or disagree with these comments or conclusions?

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Nitro

"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."

http://NitroExpress.com

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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 12 in Discussion

From: Nitro Sent: 9/8/2002 2:38 AM
Here's some numbers on this issue

Cartridge
Bullet weight

grs
Velocity

fps
Recoil

Energy

ft lbs
Recoil

Velocity

fps

375 H&H Mag 300 2500 37 16
378 Wby Mag 300 2900 100 26
416 Rigby 400 2400 52 19
416 Dakota 400 2550 78 23
416 Wby Mag 400 2600 78 23
458 Lott 500 2300 74 22
460 Wby Mag 500 2600 116 28
500 Jeffrey 570 2300 96 25

This chart assumes representative propellant weights in grains and a constant rifle weight of 9.5 lbs.

As can be seen all the "standard" velocity cartridges recoil less than the "ultra velocity" cartridges. The exception being the 500 Jeffrey which is in a different class of calibre from the rest. It still recoils less than two of the "ultras".

From this chart it shows that one could choose a 378 Wby Mag and get the second highest recoil energy at 100 ft lbs and 26 fps recoil velocity. Or choose a 460 Wby Magnum and get a punishing 116 ft lbs of recoil energy and 28 fps of recol velocity.

Or choose a 500 Jeffrey with a .5 inch wide projectile, 570 grains in weight and yet have less recoil. 96 ft lbs of recoil energy and 25 fps recoil velocity. Slightly less than the 378. Yet a far more effective cartridge at dangerous game ranges.

Of course it is a personal choice. Different people want different things Also it can be a matter of what is available as well.

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From: Nitro Sent: 9/8/2002 3:27 AM
oops

the 378 Wby Mag should have been 69 ft lbs and 22 fps.

The general principle remains the same.

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From: redbeard Sent: 9/8/2002 11:18 AM
I have found nitro that the more speed ya have(in my case) does not make more accurate shooting.In my case biggest i shoot is the 4570,my 243's and 2506 ya have a blow up on twigs and such, ya can't see thru scope.What about leading up which happens at higher speeds more than not

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From: Bigfive Sent: 9/9/2002 4:48 PM
Hi Nitro,

I think most of the guys here knows what canon I shoot.And yes I know he is the worst of all.
But what is the energy on the 460 and on the 500 and on a 600.What is the price of a 460,500,600 and what does 20 rounds for each cost you.If you can afford it my friend go for it but it does get a bit pricy after a while.I got the kick yes but I have a bigger range of bullets to play with and the same or some places even more energy.But yes I also start to develop a involuntarily snees after the 4th or 5th shot.If a wounded buffalo with more blood in his eyes than coming out of his mouth charge you are you gonna worry to shoot this beast or worry how hard the rifle is going to kick you if you shoot the beast???????????????????????????????????
Just a small comment.

Redbeard,
I don't believe that any caliber will go trough bush or twigs or whatever.If they don't break up they will alter course in a way and even with a rifle that shoots a 300gr bullet at 1500fps will not hit the bull.If it does then your luck is out of this world.

Bigfive

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From: redbeard Sent: 9/9/2002 5:57 PM
Yep but the rounds that are built for speed that I mentioned will do it more for ya.I feel more secure with my 4570 and 300 grain picking a small window through the brush than say the 2506 or my ground hog gun the 243

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From: Bigfive Sent: 9/10/2002 12:40 AM
I agree with you Redbeard but still you can't really afford to hit anything except your initial target.A lot off hunters has the perception that if they have a big heavy caliber they can shoot the animal through the bush.If that was the case I could use my 460 on elephant standing at the other end of a Baobab tree????What a joke off course.I do most of my hunting with a 243 Brno and hunt in thinck bush 50% of the time.But I do make absolutely sure that my shot is clear.Even from grass!!

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From: Nitro Sent: 9/10/2002 1:13 AM
BigFive

Not having a go at you at all. I do know you shoot the big 460. I also know of quite a few other people that use a 460 and stayed at a farm in Zambia of a very prominent and respected PH who also uses a 460 Wby Mag.

I think the bigger slower calibre heavier bullets are more effective, but you are right that they do probably cost more and are hard to get (eg 510 s etc). And the cases are always special order if not custom made.

I also think that the bullet design themselves are lagging a bit behind cartridge and powder design. Afterall when the Nitro Express cartridges were introduced what would they have been without jacketed bullets?

No one could argue the 460 Wby Mag is not an effective DG stopper. Many PHs are now using the 458 Lott.

My argument was also say for the 378 Wby Mag, 375 RUM, 416 Ultra velocity rifles, the Dakotas etc. The argument is why? Why use a fast 375 when a hunter could shoot a 416 at a slower speed with similar or even less recoil and more effectiveness? Why not even just use the 375 H7H Mag when shooting a buff at 50 yards and acchieving full penetration, why use a 378 or 375 Dakota and hit a buff at the same distance several hundred fps faster?

Most ethical hunters shooting dangerous game will not shoot at longer ranges, thereby in my opinion, meaning ultra velocities are unnecessary. If shooting at plains game at longer ranges it might be a different story.

Just my opinion. And I want to have a shot or two out of your 460 soon.

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Redbeard

I know there are a lot of fanatical 45/70 shooters out there and you're a dedicated one. It has a great reputation as a short to medium range brush calibre on medium sized game or larger game with careful shots. Throws a big hunk of lead out of the end.

Nitro

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From: Nitro Sent: 9/10/2002 1:15 AM
BigFive

A good point to a 460 Wby Mag is you can load your cartridge DOWN to 2400 fps (500 gr)

When many 458 Win Mags, Lotts, Watts will never make that velocity even if published stats claim they will.

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From: redbeard Sent: 9/10/2002 9:38 AM
Besides most factory rounds are not loaded real hot any way

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From: Bigfive Sent: 9/11/2002 4:44 PM
I hear what you guys are saying and I agree with you!The slower calibers is in some instances better.One of my favourites is the 9.3x62. and it has killed a lot of big stuff here in Africa.
The thing is that you should use a spesific caliber for a specific purpose.Don't try and stretch a caliber.You can shoot eland easy with a 30-06 but not so easy for the same sized cape buffalo.Why don't people hunt lion with a .243 or a 7x57 if a lion is a soft skinned animal?????????Not the right gun for the right animal!!!!!!!

Nevermind the caliber or penetration or velocity or all these othe things, the most important will always be your shot placement...................................

Bigfive

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Recommend Delete Message 12 of 12 in Discussion

From: safari Sent: 9/12/2002 11:32 PM
I have a Ruger #1 in .45-70 and I shoot 350gr. Sierra HPs. I load them at 2350fps and they absolutely hammer deer and bear. Great load out to 100 yds. In MI where I live our shots are usually no longer than 60-70 yds. I notice in your discussions mention is made of the .458 Lott. Let me know what you think, but I think it goes a long way to correct the shortcomings of the .458Win cartridge. I see that Ruger is now chambering it in the M77 Express, and Hornady is now offering factory ammo in that caliber. Has anybody fired that caliber, how much more does it kick than a .458Win, or a .416? By the recoil table I see that it is almost double what a .416 kicks.

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