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Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-??
      07/09/08 07:01 PM

Paul:

Quote:

If Barnes bullets won't obtuate at less than 45,000 psi, does that mean they might promote throat erosion from young gas?




This essentially duplicates Dan's question above. Erosion from blow by seems a reasonable assumption to me.

Quote:

Barnes's soft-metal, driving-band defence seems plausible - can anyone explain why that would not mitigate damage to rifles?




That's the point. If it's so hard that it won't obturate below 45,000 PSI, it isn't soft at all. Note that the maximum operating pressures of ALL flanged nitro express cartridges over .375 (large bore double rifle cartridges) are below 45,000 PSI, excepting the .500/.416. The inability to obturate is the danger to DRs. Further, the Barnes solid and TSX are not of true driving band design. The full diameter "bands" are far too wide to permit the necessary compression.

Quote:

What is the empirical/observed evidence from the other side on monos causing damage?




The two common forms of damage have been noted above - failed solder joints and OSR. I've seen both, OSR being the most common. Failed solder joints are self explanatory. The constant excessive expansion and contraction of the barrel metal due to the repeated passage of non-compressible bullets can cause perfectly good rib and muzzle wedge solder joints to fail.

OSR is a well known problem with mono-metal bullets in doubles that, for some reason I can't understand, seems to be very difficult for many to see, even when it's severe. It's caused by a non-compressible bullet too hard for the barrel passing down the bore, forcing the lands outward. The displaced metal has to go somewhere - to the outside of the barrels. The easiest way to detect it is to point the rifle at a light source with a straight edge next to it (a window pane is usually perfect) and look for the spirals (the reverse "imprint" of the rifling) pushed through to the outside of the barrels. This type of damage is common, and it isn't repairable. I can truthfully state that I've seen dozens of examples.

Gregor Woods mentions that in extreme cases of OSR, the barrels can actually end up bent. I can't be certain, but I think I've seen this once. The barrels were sucessfully straightened.

Steel jacketed solids have been available in factory ammuntion for double rifles, and in wide use in them, for almost 60 years. OSR doesn't seem to have become a regular issue in DRs until mono-metal bullets began to take hold in the '80s. I've shot up a lot of old steel Kynoch in a variety of rifles, including a batch of steel jacketed Kynoch SOFTS in .470 (before I knew how rare they were), and plenty of Woodleigh solids. I've never observed a problem of any kind. I've also shot a very few monos in doubles on two occasions, and got damage both times, in one case severe. The latter was with Barnes X, a total of less than 50 rounds (less than 25 rounds through each tube).

At flanged nitro express DR velocities (2000-2100 fps), I don't see any advantage monos offer, let alone enough to justify the risk.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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* Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-??? Ripp 07/09/08 02:20 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 400NitroExpress   07/09/08 07:46 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Paul   07/09/08 09:55 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 400NitroExpress   07/09/08 07:01 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 4seventy   07/09/08 08:06 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? hoppdoc   07/09/08 08:25 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Roscoe   08/09/08 01:30 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 400NitroExpress   09/09/08 01:51 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? escard   17/09/08 06:30 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Paul   09/09/08 01:36 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 4seventy   09/09/08 03:25 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500grains   10/09/08 12:37 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 4seventy   10/09/08 08:02 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Paul   09/09/08 04:57 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Naren   09/09/08 07:59 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? DarylS   09/09/08 03:08 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Butch_Searcy   09/09/08 07:19 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? DarylS   09/09/08 11:25 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   10/09/08 06:14 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? DarylS   10/09/08 07:42 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   10/09/08 10:37 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? DarylS   14/09/08 10:30 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   14/09/08 06:09 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Mike_Bailey   15/09/08 02:38 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? DarylS   15/09/08 03:42 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? NE450No2   15/09/08 10:37 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? bwananelson   15/09/08 11:56 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? NitroXAdministrator   15/09/08 06:59 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 4seventy   15/09/08 10:38 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? NitroXAdministrator   16/09/08 03:20 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   17/09/08 12:43 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Ripp   17/09/08 10:41 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   17/09/08 11:37 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Ripp   18/09/08 12:41 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   18/09/08 12:28 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   18/09/08 12:34 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? mickey   18/09/08 01:49 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   18/09/08 05:44 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 93mouse   18/09/08 08:38 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Ripp   18/09/08 10:18 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   18/09/08 11:23 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   19/09/08 06:07 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 93mouse   19/09/08 04:51 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 93mouse   19/09/08 05:19 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   19/09/08 11:58 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 4seventy   19/09/08 06:27 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Huvius   20/09/08 12:32 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   20/09/08 12:50 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Huvius   20/09/08 01:19 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Chasseur   20/09/08 08:18 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? hoppdoc   20/09/08 06:00 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Huvius   21/09/08 02:32 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   21/09/08 12:53 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500grains   21/09/08 03:34 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? hoppdoc   21/09/08 09:44 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Chasseur   21/09/08 04:21 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? tinker   21/09/08 06:15 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   20/09/08 05:38 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JabaliHunter   19/09/08 11:09 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Smokinjoe   20/09/08 12:24 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Gerard   19/09/08 11:39 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JabaliHunter   20/09/08 12:52 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   20/09/08 07:23 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Ripp   22/09/08 12:16 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? mickey   22/09/08 02:09 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   22/09/08 04:37 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? bwananelson   22/09/08 07:29 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   22/09/08 04:42 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   23/09/08 01:35 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   23/09/08 12:42 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   23/09/08 04:39 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? CptCurlAdministrator   23/09/08 08:46 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   24/09/08 12:20 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   25/09/08 06:22 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 4seventy   24/09/08 09:36 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   24/09/08 05:07 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   23/09/08 10:35 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   23/09/08 01:18 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   23/09/08 02:08 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? bwananelson   23/09/08 02:40 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   23/09/08 11:10 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? NitroXAdministrator   23/09/08 02:50 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   22/09/08 10:35 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? bwananelson   22/09/08 11:32 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   22/09/08 01:23 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Paul   22/09/08 01:59 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? NitroXAdministrator   22/09/08 01:51 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   19/09/08 12:30 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? peter   19/09/08 04:17 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   19/09/08 04:04 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500grains   19/09/08 12:19 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Bramble   19/09/08 12:14 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? farshot   19/09/08 03:43 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? DarylS   19/09/08 12:11 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Paul   18/09/08 07:39 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? DarylS   18/09/08 10:42 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JabaliHunter   18/09/08 05:11 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? bwananelson   18/09/08 03:22 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Mike_Bailey   15/09/08 08:15 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 450_366   15/09/08 09:37 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   15/09/08 12:30 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? NE450No2   11/09/08 04:37 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500Nitro   11/09/08 04:38 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Pilgrim   13/09/08 04:15 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? bwananelson   14/09/08 04:21 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JabaliHunter   14/09/08 07:56 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   14/09/08 10:01 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500Nitro   14/09/08 10:06 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 9.3x57   14/09/08 10:20 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500grains   09/09/08 12:32 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Butch_Searcy   10/09/08 12:07 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Ripp   08/09/08 01:39 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Roscoe   08/09/08 05:40 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? JPK   08/09/08 10:02 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? farshot   09/09/08 12:57 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500Nitro   07/09/08 10:01 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? armbar   07/09/08 11:19 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? WVFRED   07/09/08 11:33 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? Ripp   07/09/08 11:06 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? hoppdoc   07/09/08 11:32 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 500Nitro   07/09/08 11:43 AM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? zimhunter   07/09/08 12:11 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? *DELETED* 500grains   07/09/08 01:08 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? bwananelson   07/09/08 02:26 PM
. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 400NitroExpress   07/09/08 07:17 PM
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. * * Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? 400NitroExpress   07/09/08 04:52 PM

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