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Hunting >> Hunting in the Americas

Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles?
      28/01/08 05:18 AM

A very interesting topic, indeed; thanks NitroX!

For a number of reasons, I use a lever gun myself.
To be honest, the main reason for this is John Wayne. From the time I was a kid I've loved Westerns and a cowboy (or the sheriff) of course only shoots a lever gun, does he not?
(And a [single action] revolver, but that's another story for another forum altogether.)

The other reason as I've brought forward before is me being familiar with the gun , thus trusting it and myself with it.
My father acquired a bolt action TAP Lakelander 9,3x62 a couple of years back, and it's a magnificent rifle. However, last summer on the shooting range when practicing I had a user-induced feeding problem with the gun. Although I've frowned upon this actually happening to some idiot in practice, I didn't pull the bolt all the way back which of course caused the bolt to jam on the next cartridge not feeding it. This did frighten me a tad, and I'm happy it happened on the range and not in the woods. After some practice, I'm sure I'd become very proficient with the bolt action, as well.
Some years back when I borrowed my uncle's Pystykorva (basically a modified Mosin-Nagant rifle) I had to rechamber very quickly after a miss and still today I'm flabbergasted at the speed I managed to do it. Also having some experience with a Sako .243 it's obvious that I'd manage a bolt.

However: I like the style and the usability of the lever action.
One reason for this is in the history of the lever action. Originally, it was a cavalry rifle. Now, when riding a horse you always need at least one hand to manage the horse and you may only have one hand for the rifle. If you hold the lever action in only one hand, you're likely to have your fingers through the lever's loop which makes the grip very secure. Also, when chambering the next round in a bolt action (or almost any other action except a lever) you first need to let go with one hand when moving it from the pistol grip to the bold handle. If you now need to let go with your support hand to handle the horse, you'll drop the rifle. Not so with the lever as your hand is all the time securely holding the gun through the lever. I and my father have noticed this same feeling of safety in the woods, too.
Additionally, chambering the next round in a lever is lightning-quick, second probably only to the slide action (pump action) - although the speed at which a bolt can be operated by a well practiced user leaves little room for wishes, so the discussion is probably academic at best.
(Note I said "chambering the next round" - not firing it so you double rifle enthusiasts need not spit your coffee over the keyboard. Same goes for self-loading guns, for that matter.)

I have no complaints as to the accuracy. Last summer I hammered three factory-loaded Sako Hammerhead rounds in a group of about 1.5 inches at a distance of 100 meters from sitting position. That's with open sights. (Which greatly annoyed me in that now I certainly have NO excuse to buy a new rifle.) I think this also proves Jeff Cooper's point about any (decent) rifle being more accurate than the shooter him/herself.

But getting to John's point about the (un)popularity and the reasons thereto.
Partly, it is likely to be a cultural difference. With few exceptions, only Americans have ever made lever actions. Therefore, they have been largely unknown elsewhere.
Secondly, the bolt action gun came in use quickly after the development of the cased cartridge thus making it the most familiar concept of rifle practically throughout the world.
Thirdly, we all know the virtues of the bolt action: accuracy, durability etc. There are actions which beat the bolt in some of these fields but I think the bolt action in truth is the winner overall with few weak points or features.
Fourthly, the bolt action gun can be manufactured at reasonable cost yet at fairly decent quality. On basis of what I've read, many of the lever action mechanisms (especially the latter improvements on the mechanism) are fairly expensive to manufacture: Sako's Finnwolf, Win 1895, the Savage etc. The more traditional types featuring a tube magazine are cheaper to make, I believe, which belief of mine is supported by the reasonable retail prices of such guns.
This brings us to the fifth point: the tube magazine. There have been but few designs which are not fitted with the tubular magazine requiring flat point bullets, or loading with only 1+1 - until quite recently with the introduction Hornady's rubber tipped SST bullet. (Imagine that: the lever's been around for more than 100 years and not until now did we see bullets developed to remedy one of the type's shortcomings!) This does limit the gun type's long range capabilities. I am of the opinion, though, that the problem has been exaggerated considering the fairly short practical shooting distances in the woods.
To continue with the list, the lever is never considered as accurate as the bolt action - or many an other type of action available on the market today. I disagree with this fairly strongly. It is certainly true that you'll probably never be able to squeeze out the last fractions of an MOA out of a lever gun, but for all practical purposes the lever action gun is plenty accurate. My good friend's grandfather used to use his old Marlin lever action to shoot birds from the treetops at +100 meter distances. This requires sub-MOA accuracy. I should add that his gun was not fitted with a scope sight.
Seventhly (?), many types of lever gun cannot comfortably be fitted with a scope sight. Many eject the cases up which would cause them to hit the scope and bounce back into the action causing a jam. Also, there may not be enough of frame for the scope mounts requiring some sort of special arrangement.
But see this: http://www.z-hat.com/
The last point that I can think of is limited power levels associated with the lever guns. Within limitations, it's probably true. I don't know of any lever gun whose action would lend itself to magnum-length cartridges. However, the .30-06 length cartridges are quite powerful for all but elephant. Provided that the action can take the pressure of the load of, say, a hot .45-70 or 9,3x62. See also some of Z-Hat's Hawk loads for the Win 1895 - very impressive, indeed! Or how about Marlin's heavier calibers?

Further to NitroX's question about the Sako Finnwolf.
I have no experience with the gun at all. I have read all articles concerning the model that I have been able to find. Not long ago there was an article in the Swedish publication Vapentidningen ('The Gun Journal') about the Sako. It called the Finnwolf the best lever gun ever made.
Some very interesting features were brought forward, such as the action being in practice a bolt action which via the use of cogwheels is operated with the help of the lever rather than a traditional bolt handle. This made the action both strong and accurate. Additionally, the barrel was free-floating making the gun as accurate as any bolt action gun ever.

What then killed off the Sako Finnwolf together with many other like types? Cost of manufacture combined with low demand, I'm afraid.
There are few of us Wayne's successors left although we die hard. It's rather a pity, I think, as the type is very usable, quick and has to my understanding proved to be reliable, too. Especially in the woods and scrub the lever gun is fairly short and handles and points well. Therefore, it is understandable that some of the Alaska game guides trust the type. An additional feat of the lever gun is that it readily lends itself to various take-down concepts, as per e.g. Z-Hat's concept and Wild West Guns' "Alaskan Copilot".

Interestingly, the hereinabove mentioned slide action seems to have suffered the same fate only being manufactured by Remington anymore. In some very potent variations, I daresay, including a stainless with synthetic stock and chambered even in .35 Whelen.
I don't think I have ever seen a slide action gun anywhere, not even in gun shows.

Long ramble but finally I got this off my chest!

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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Entire topic
Subject Posted by Posted on
* Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? NitroXAdministrator 11/05/05 03:06 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Indy   18/11/08 04:06 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Der_Jaeger   18/11/08 11:10 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DarylS   19/11/08 03:52 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Huvius   21/11/08 02:46 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? nhdblfan   19/01/09 01:39 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Tatume   19/01/09 02:17 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Mike_Bailey   19/01/09 06:45 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Dphariss   04/03/08 05:40 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 9.3x57   05/03/08 09:19 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DarylS   02/04/08 06:47 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? JabaliHunter   03/04/08 08:58 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? mickey   04/04/08 08:49 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 9.3x57   02/04/08 11:16 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? bwananelson   03/04/08 03:10 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 9.3x57   03/04/08 09:02 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DarylS   03/04/08 10:03 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? bwananelson   03/04/08 10:59 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 9.3x57   03/04/08 11:12 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? jimincolo   02/04/08 05:36 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? bigmaxx   02/06/08 10:12 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? buckeyeshooter   13/04/08 07:16 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? tarawa   10/05/08 12:59 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   01/06/08 02:16 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Bramble   02/06/08 12:24 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   02/06/08 12:34 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Bramble   03/06/08 08:16 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   03/06/08 09:51 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Bramble   03/06/08 10:37 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   03/06/08 01:53 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   05/06/08 09:28 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   05/06/08 10:32 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Tatume   06/06/08 02:06 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   06/06/08 05:05 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Tatume   06/06/08 08:37 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 9.3x57   06/06/08 11:29 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Chasseur   10/06/08 11:28 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? bakerb   16/10/08 07:49 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 9.3x57   16/10/08 11:54 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Bramble   06/06/08 01:52 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   02/06/08 12:50 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   02/06/08 01:03 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   02/06/08 01:48 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   02/06/08 03:22 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   02/06/08 09:13 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   02/06/08 12:54 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? reflex264   01/06/08 02:21 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   01/06/08 11:40 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? dnovo   04/04/08 10:23 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? szihn   04/04/08 10:40 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? bwananelson   04/04/08 11:30 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Marrakai   05/04/08 04:38 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Mike_Bailey   04/03/08 10:19 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? bwananelson   05/03/08 12:09 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? IronBuck   11/05/05 10:04 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? luv2safari   13/05/05 04:06 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DPhillips   12/05/05 02:54 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DoubleD   12/05/05 10:00 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DarylS   25/01/08 05:34 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? NE450No2   25/01/08 11:42 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Schauckis   28/01/08 05:18 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 12FVSS260   06/02/08 09:46 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DPhillips   13/05/05 09:42 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? atkinson6   04/07/05 04:36 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 475Guy   04/07/05 06:55 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 500Nitro   04/07/05 08:30 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? NitroXAdministrator   04/07/05 01:39 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 475Guy   05/07/05 01:55 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Plains99   07/07/05 05:22 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? 475Guy   07/07/05 07:53 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? Plains99   07/07/05 11:33 PM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? DPhillips   08/07/05 10:48 AM
. * * Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? gallatin   24/01/08 03:48 PM

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