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Alan - exactly right.

The 45-70 was originally a military anti personnel round. You don't need much velocity to puncture the thin skinned mammals. Given the performance of the 45 ACP as a man stopper, about 900 fps will do the trick.

Nothing against Garrett cartridges. I own a 45-70 lever rifle and use it in dense brush hunts for deer. With the Garretts, I would consder using it on black bear at ranges under 40 yards.

There are a whole host of calibers developed some 100 years ago specifically for African Big Game. And those calibers all exceed 2000 fps. The conventional wisdom is that you need sufficient velocity to penetrate tough hide, muscle and bone. Once that's achieved, the bullet can do its work.

Both John Talor and Elmer Keith thought pur kinetic energy calculations were useless on big game. And in my experience they are correct. That's where Taylor's "knock out" numbers came from.

A 45-70 shooting 500 grains at 1600 fps has a Taylor KO of 52. A 540 grain bullet at 1500 fps gives you a KO of 53. But two things need to be noted - velocity is well under 2000 fps and the 45-70 loses more velocity and energy than almost all other cartridges after it leaves the muzzle. The 375 H&H with a 300 grain bullet has a KO value of 42. But it also has a muzzle velocity in the 2500 fps range.

A 416 Rigby with a 400 grain bullet hitting 2500 fps has a KO value of 59.

A 470 NE with a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps has a KO value of 73. A 500 NE with a 570 grain bullet going 2150 fps has a KO value of 88. A 577 NE with a 750 grain bullet has a KO value of almost 130.

A few years back, I used a 45-70 with 400 grain factory ammo to hunt wild boar in Tennessee. I hit a 300 pount boar 3 times at 30 to 40 yards - two right behind the shoulder and one in the liver as he was hightaling up the mountain - and he ran off like he just got stung by a bee, I cornered him on the top of the mountain - or he cornered me, and my last shot through his right eye put him down.

My personal opinion is that the 45-70 is fine for game of thin skin and under 200 pounds. Maybe the Garretts would allow you to go 300 pounds. But I sure as hell would not bet my life on it for dangerous game. You need at least 2000 fps with a minimum of a 400 grain bullet. You need a combination of velocity and knock down power.

Can you kill DG with a 45-70? Sure. A buddy of mine killed a grizzly with a .357 handgun. And hunters have taken DG with a bow and arrow. And poachers in Africa kill elephant with a 7.62x 39 AK 47 shooting a 123 grain bullet. But when you're hunting something that can end your life in an instant at a cost of over $25,000, why on Earth would you want to take the chance?

And any asshole who goes for the Big 6 just to get in the Guiness book is not a hunter. He is not even a harvester. He simply is a thrill killer. Guys like him keep PETA in business.

None of my first 3 shots penetrated all the way trough.

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