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Alan:

If you found my post contradictory, then you got the gist of it.

My point is that, with Brit .350 doubles, you can't go by the proof marks to determine which load the rifle was intended for. That is contrary to the ususal rule with Brit rifles.

I became a student of the British double some years before I bought my first one. After buying my first couple, I found the proof marks monumentally confusing and so, became a serious student of those as well. Early on in that long process, I decided that I wanted a medium bore double as well and began looking for a .400/.350. I immediately noticed the weirdness of the flanged .350s. Because I found the proof marks of the No. 2s so utterly inexplicable, I have, ever since, ALWAYS carefully examined every Brit .350 double that I've had a chance to handle. Others I didn't handle at all, but called the dealers who had them and asked about the proof marks and information engraved on top of the barrels. While I don't claim to be the Great Sage, I don't imagine there are many who have paid as particular attention to this particular issue for as long as I have. What I stated in my initial post, I am certain, is correct.

Your comments about the pressures are noted and correct, but that isn't the point. The point is that you have to deal with what was done with these rifles, not what should have been done.

In order to answer your fair question, and to try to help Bill a little, I'll try to explain what I think happened with these rifles as clearly as I can, but I'm afraid that it's confusing. First, it's worth noting that virtually all of the British .400/.350 and .350 No. 2 doubles that I've handled have been Webley products, sold and/or finished by Rigby or Gibbs. I may have seen one from another retailer, but don't recall it. These would have been "bought in" from Webley as proven barreled actions "in the white" and stocked and finished by the retailer, or bought in complete. Bill, the next opportunity you have to look at this rifle, look for a five digit number in one of two places - on the short rib (between the flats and the fore-end loop, number will be 10000 to 12000) - or on the left side of the fore-end loop, hard up against the barrels (look closely or you'll miss it, number in the 13000 range). If this is a Rigby rifle, it should be there. This is Webley's number. A very few Rigby boxlock rifles were bought in from Wilkes, in which case it won't be there.

Another key piece to this puzzle is that both cartridges use the exact same case - indeed, original Kynoch .350 No. 2 ammo was often headstamped ".400/.350" - and the same diameter bullet. This was an invitation to the short-cuts that I think happened along the way. I believe something very similar happened with the .450/.400s.

The last element is the methodology of British Proof. New British guns are proved as early in the manufacturing process as possible. Why waste bench time finishing a gun that may fail proof? Thus, they are proved as barreled actions "in the white", before stocking and finishing.

So, Webley barrels up an action with .350 barrels for Rigby, Gibbs, et al. At this point, absent specification from Webley, it's just a ".350" to the London Proof House, so it's proved for the 43 Cordite/310 bullet load. Also at this point, the retailer may not know which load the rifle will ultimately be regulated for, so the order to Webley doesn't specify. The retailer then regulates it to fill orders for either cartridge as needed. Fast and loose with the proof rules to be sure, but the rifles themselves are mute testimony to the fact that they did so. I say again, the overwhelming majority of Brit DRs originally delivered as .350 No. 2's, with language engraved on top of the barrels specifying ".350 No. 2" and "225 grain bullet" bear "Cordite 43, 310 MAX" proof marks.

As I previously stated, I had a long conversation with David Little at Kynoch about the .350s. Since most of the DRs in use in the world today are pre-war guns, one of the things that the new Kynoch company does is shoot as many vintage DRs as they can with both vintage Kynoch and current Kynoch ammo in order to fine tune their current stuff to match the old. They also extensively pressure test both. When I said that I found the proof marks on No. 2 rifles strange, David interrupted me by saying "Yeah, most were proved for the .400/.350 load." He did say that the No. 2 was a higher pressure round. His explanation for the proof marks is the one given above.

Perhaps the guns proved "Cordite 51 1/2, 225 MAX" were guns that were "bought in" complete from Webley, and were therefore known to be No. 2s specifically when they arrived at the proof house? I don't know, but that sounds likely.

Does this mean that No. 2s proved "Cordite 43, 310 MAX" were technically "out of proof" when sold? Hell, yes. Specific to Rigby, this isn't the only instance of this that I know of. I've noticed a number of .450 3 1/4" Rigby double rifles engraved something like "Rigby's Special .450 Cordite Big Game Rifle", "For Cordite and 480 Grain Nickel Bullet" in the 17000 to 17100 serial number range, all with straight black powder proof marks. These rifles were delivered in the 1904-1907 period. The .450 Nitro was introduced in 1898, but even under the 1896 rules of proof, semi-smokeless proof was required for rifles chambered for a nitro cartridge and marks specific to semi-smokeless (nitro) proof had been in use since 1887. These rifles were sold as .450 Nitro Expresses, but were proved as BPEs. Were these rifles "out of proof" when sold? Does a one-legged duck swim in a circle? Stranger than fiction.

Your previous reference to the length of the throat is well taken. I've always wondered about that myself. Did most of the No. 2s just have long throats? Perhaps a little freebore partly explains how they got the velocity without pressure problems? I don't know.

The bottom line is: for the British flanged .350 DRs, if the proof marks say "Cordite 43, 310 MAX", you don't know which cartridge the rifle is intended for, absent additional information engraved on top of the barrels. The proof marks for both will usually be the same. If there is no additional information provided, I don't know what you do.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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