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tks for the accolade, hunter angler. Deserved or not, here is my opinion on this topic.

A short (2.55") loaded Marlin, with a 350gr. can reach 2,150fps to 2,200fps if loaded to it's maximum pressure range of 43,000psi. It will also do 2,000fps with a 400gr. Jacketed and possibly 2,000fps with a 450gr. bullet - if a cast bullet. Any of these can be softs or solids.

The Garret(I think it was) ammo - 400gr. JACKETED solid that Brian Pierce used on his cape buffalo only started at about 1,790fps'ish, I think, from the 22" bl. on his M1895.

My buddy's stainless Marlin Guide's Rifle, with it's 18 1/2" bl. runs 2,004fps with the 400gr. (Barnes Old Style) flat point jacketed. Speer's manual lists the exact load he used (49.0gr. RE#7) as 1,828fps with their 400gr. FP which is 176fps lower than my chronograph recorded the Barnes and Gord's chronograph registered 2,007fpe - which is why I double checked his rifle and loads on my own machine - I didn't believe it when first told about them, but he was correct. Yeah - it kicks - oh well, so does my .375.

If loaded to higher pressure in a bolt gun or one of the strong single shots, we're looking at a good 150 to 200fps higher speeds than what the Marlin can achieve - IF the appropriate powders are used. Factory ammo? - forget it. This is a handloading proposition only.

In a 24" Siamese Mauser, .45/70 I built up for a friend, we quite easily matched my .458 2" Mauser loads (22" bl.) - using exactly the same powder, charges and bullets (all jacketed). Note, you can do about 100fps higher speeds with cast bullets of the same weight, same loads.
2,300fps with 350gr.
2,150fps with 400gr.
2,060fps with 500gr.

We could have increased these loads, but they shot VERY accurately in his McGowen Bl. and he was happy with them. Loading experimentation done.

I also got 1,990fps with the 550gr. Lyman cast. Incidently, Elmer Keith told me over the phone that the heavy blunt Lyman bullet would be the one he'd take to Africa for my .458 2" and never feel undergunnned. He said,"Daryl, it will go through everything there. Just put it where it's needed"

One merely has to forget about all the love/hate relationships about the .45/70 on African or heavy Australian game and look at the ballistics only. What do the numbers say?

Compare those numbers to what we already know that works - will these ballistics work - damn right - as with any round, you just have to hit them right.

If you want more power, there's always the Custom Marlin's & Winchester 86's that are being converted to .50 Alaskan - the late Harold Johnson's favourite brown bear stopper. Heonly used a 450gr. bullet in that one and said that round never failed to exit from ANY angle shot. 1,800fps, seems to me - I have Kronfield's writeup on harold with that round and rifle. Even Harold's old loads in the .450 Alaskan M86 which he preferred before turning it into a .50 Alsakan, only just matched what today's Marlin .45/70 can do with the same bullets.

Look at the ballistics and forget about ctg. prejudice and/or personal reasons not related to these basic ballistics.

I will also add, that as far as my knowledge goes concerning the 'high speed' factory ammo available today - there is NONE (that I know of) that I would consider for my own hunting for Water or Cape buffalo. Sorry - I'll make my own thanks.

Will the standard .45/70 ammo match the old BPE .450 - yes - the 300gr. stuff does - 1,880fps. Handloads easily surpass it by leaps and bounds - yet, the .450 was considered to be quite sufficient when using black powder loads and heavier bullets - interesting. With those, it only matched the heavier .45 Cal Sharps loadings, which of course were famous for killing bison at incredible ranges.

In a modern higher pressure rifle like a Ruger #1, Browning SS or Siamese Mauser, a handloaded .45/70 will match current .458 Win Mag factory ammo - ie: 2,060fps with 500 to 510gr. bullets - that, I've done with 2 powders, H335 and IMR4320.

I actually used the same powder charges for all 3 bullet weights which shows there could be further improvements in 350 and 400gr. weights with slightly faster powders. I was more than happy with the ballistics I was already getting. Never shot a buffalo, American, African or Australia,n only moose - 2,290fps with 350gr. Hornady RN - killed 'em DRT- Dead Right There - works.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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