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Exactly - what about lung shots above the heart? - inflated full of air vs empty - or stomach full of food vs empty - all having a direct reault on penetration as well - how much liquid, how much food to wade through. Big difference in internal damage due to this phenominum some called hydrostatic shock, vs the speed required 'apparently' to activate it in tissue alone.

I think speed is a relative deal here, depending on the condition of the organs - as noted above - full or empty. A lower speed works on full organs, a much higher speed is required to activate the mere tissues themselves. Much comes down to secondary missiles & the damage they create.

Cup pointed bullets such as the new Woodleigh create much more damage than a smoothly rounded solid, as do ordinary flat noses although the cup point rules thus far. Harold Johnson (Cooper's Landing- Alaska) found that out many years ago on coastal grizzlies, ie: Brown and Kodiak bears. He used the base secton weighing around 450gr. from a .5 Browning steel cored machine gun bullet, cut off. He seated them base-cup out and achieved not only great penetration but excellent cavitation inside the animals - instant kills, etc - from a solid. He was driving them quite slow, too, not over 1,800 or 1,900fps muzzle velocity - .50 Alaskan in a Model 71 or 86 Winchester.

Woodleigh merely used this same idea - or perhaps came upon it themselves - who knows - who cares? They work.

I had read about Harold's work and was cup-pointing soft nosed bullets that were too hard for the job I had for them many years ago and I'm sure other handloaders did the same.

Case in point were the 270gr.RN's for my wife's .375 Winchester Model 94 bought in 97, using cup-pointed bullets in it in 80 and 81 on moose. They worked just fine @ 1,800fps mv - - imagine that.

Getting back to the damage and results on big game - why is it a moose takes a .300 WTBY 180gr. or 200gr. through both lungs and drops dead on the spot - but the next time, exactly the same circumstances, runs 50 yards(the norm if not chased)and lays down to die, hidden in the bush. If chased, he might run 300 yards before feeling safe to lay down & die - takes a while to die in one case, and almost instantaneously in the other, - why?

I've noticed something different though, with the little .375 - the cup pointed 270's or 220gr. FN's through the lungs - 1 to 4 steps - dead - every time - why?

.735" or .684" round balls, same inpact, stagger sideways at impact, then down or down in 2 or 3 struggling, shakey steps - why?

Why does a big bull moose drop dead after only a 40 yard run after being holed by a .535" round ball? Autopsy shows both lungs and heart have only a permanent 1/2" hole through & through. Energy at impact - less than 220 FPE - dead long before the 300 mag. bullet which completely disintegrates heart and lungs - why?

I don't believe in any of the formulas, but diameter is important - it's more important than weight or speed as long as penetraion is suficient, that is - from what I've personally seen - the bigger the better.

Increased penetration is why I made a mould that would cast from 580gr. to 1,200gr. Hemispherical nosed bullets for my .69 Sporting Rifle

When the .69's round balls begin to fail to go through a moose, I might use some slugs - but I doubt that will EVER happen though.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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