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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8727
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: the last mysterys in gun history
05/12/09 01:52 AM

the last problem for this day

there exist one or more M 1886 Lebel sporting rifles in 445 Grasset Nitro express. What I know is that Grasset was a gunmaker in Paris around 1914. this pic shows a simple sporterized military rifle.

New short barrel, the original fore-end with magazine cut for holding maybe 4-5 rounds in the tubular magazine.
.445 is the bullet diameter measured in inch of the 11x59R Gras cartridge.
The lebel rifle is always of special interest for me because if you ask if I have my first rifle: Yes. It was a world war relict without stock and a bulge in the barrel that I have got in the age of 14.
The rifle was cleaned, stocked and when times have changed years ago now it was legalized.

I believe that Grasset used the 11x59R Gras case and make a full power nitro round from this again in similar way like August Schüler in Suhl created the 11,2x60 from the 11,15x60R mauser .
This cartridge was maybe similar to the WW 1 11x59R Vickers, simply a nitro loaded Gras cartridge with full metal jacket for heavy machine guns.
The lebel action with his tubular magazine is a similar problem like a mannlicher magazine. The cartridge needs similar length and base/rim diameter like the 8x50R Lebel round to work in this.

8x50R Lebel military load
8x50R Lebel handload
11x59R Gras
11x59R Vickers
11,15x60 R Mauser
11,2x60 Schueler

The Gras case was the mother case for the 8mm Lebel, they differ only because the Gras have the Mauser A base rim. In all it would make a simple work to change the Gras rim or the Lebel bolt head.
The 11mm Gras and the Vickers cartridge working in the lebel action but the Vickers with the short bullet will make problems in the magazine.

If Grasset have load his cartridge with Gras brass the oal was like the 8mm Lebel Round. It must have been a full metal and also a softpoint load in the 10,75x68 Mauser class and I think was available only as a handload in Grasset’s shop.
No question that it never had a chance against the Mauser M 98

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/09 12:15 AM)

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Subject	Posted by	Posted on
the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	05/12/09 12:17 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Collath_500BPE	16/12/09 01:39 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	28/12/09 12:52 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Collath_500BPE	12/01/10 12:21 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	12/01/10 03:38 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Collath_500BPE	13/01/10 02:38 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	13/01/10 06:03 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Kiwi_bloke	16/01/10 05:23 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	16/01/10 07:19 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	25/01/10 09:49 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	08/05/10 04:28 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	31/05/10 01:14 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	03/07/10 02:03 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	CptCurl	03/07/10 10:21 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	04/07/10 01:23 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	24/01/11 10:55 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	21/09/11 04:32 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	9.3x57	21/09/11 01:06 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	09/07/14 04:15 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	05/10/14 08:06 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Ash	14/01/15 03:55 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	DarylS	25/08/20 01:06 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	DarylS	02/01/24 11:18 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	26/08/20 04:59 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	14/01/15 05:25 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Ash	01/02/15 09:52 PM
Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE!	Ash	02/02/15 06:01 PM
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE!	lancaster	02/02/15 07:24 PM
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE!	Ash	02/02/15 07:32 PM
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE!	lancaster	02/02/15 07:54 PM
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE!	lancaster	03/02/15 04:09 AM
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE!	Ash	24/08/20 10:23 PM
Re: Lancaster, we have the ARTICLE!	lancaster	25/08/20 03:55 AM
445 Grasset Nitro	Ash	25/08/20 09:39 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	9.3x57	06/10/14 12:52 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	06/10/14 03:18 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	kuduae	26/01/10 07:43 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	26/01/10 08:56 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Collath_500BPE	02/02/10 10:07 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	03/02/10 01:48 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	19/02/10 04:50 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Ash	14/01/15 03:47 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	fuhrmann	19/02/10 06:43 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	19/02/10 09:48 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	fuhrmann	20/02/10 12:03 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	20/02/10 05:19 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	fuhrmann	20/02/10 08:43 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	23/02/10 07:56 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Collath_500BPE	23/02/10 09:57 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	30/03/10 04:40 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	vienna	01/05/10 08:12 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	tinker	02/05/10 12:36 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	02/05/10 05:54 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	03/05/10 06:19 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	kuduae	27/01/10 09:50 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	450_366	06/12/09 08:12 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	ellenbr	07/12/09 01:02 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	08/12/09 11:37 PM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	500Nitro	05/12/09 12:28 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	05/12/09 12:50 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	02/01/24 05:55 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	Huvius	05/12/09 01:33 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	05/12/09 01:52 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	lancaster	05/12/09 01:53 AM
Re: the last mysterys in gun history	mehulkamdar	06/12/09 11:40 AM

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