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Reflex and 9.3 - you guys have hit the nail directly on it's head.

If you want to see better ballistics from either the .45/70, or much easier yet, from the .450 Marlin, you have to put them in bolt guns or single shot Rugers. Then they come even closer to the .416 and .458's, but they still aren't EQUAL. - Closer than from a lever gun, but not equal as they won't put of the same weight bullets out the muzzle at the same velocity.

If the .450 Marlin's chamber (bolt or single) had a 3/8" free-bore, allowing longer seating length, it will develope ballistics the same as a modern 2.4" (.45/90)BUt- it still won't equal a .458 - especially if the .458 also has the normal long leade or freebore.

Example - from a Mk 10 Mauser, my .458 Alaskan (.458 2") with 3/8" freebore, gots 2,060fps with 500gr. Hornadys(4,713fpe). Compared to down loaded .458 Win Mags. it's equal, but compared to properly loaded .458 WinMags, it's still behind by 100fps or slightly more. Is it noticable on game? - maybe not with premium bullets - but who cares - quibbling. I've loaded 400gr. to 420gr. bullets to 2,200fps (4,515fpe). Not quite maximum, but good enough for anything this side of Mars - IF the proper bullet is used. Yes - as Brian P. said, the .45/70 Marlins attained a poor rep in Africa right off the bat due to the bullets some hunters tried to use on buffalo - good heavens - a 300gr. factory load? - talk about ignorant people!

Bear in mind, a .45 cal. will usually produce close to 100fps higher velocity with a cast bullet than jacketed. I never tried the RCBS 525gr. at more than 1,900fps - they killed wolves and moose just fine at that spped- rather excessive, actually - but fun. Oh yeah - that's only 4,209fpe - considerbly short of the .458Mags. etc.

The .450 Marlin's 2.1" case, with appropriate freebore or leade in a bolt or single action gun will give identical or slighty better ballistics than my 2" case will, but it must have the appropriate chamber leade to do it. Evenw it more power available, I often held 400gr.-type bullets, cast and jacketed to around 1,900to 2,000fps due to easier(on me) shooting - speeds which are easily matched & exceeded with a Marlin, using appropriate powders either the .45/70 or .450 Marlin will do.

The Leverguns have a very short leade and maximum overall length, limiting powder space. This hurts the performance in comparrison, BUT - they are very effectvie, even with this shortcomming. The M86 Browning/Winchesters allow longer bullet seating for the .45/70 and increased performance over the Marlin - Maybe noticable on game, maybe not. Once you get voer about 1,600fps or 1,700fps range, these 'old' designed ctgs. are VERY effective on most anything - IF the proper bullet is used.

There is no arguing with Rod's, reflex's or even my meager testing & performance on game with these rounds. They work & work well. I was very impressed with my first .458 2"(worn out kinda - 15,000 rounds), long throat, so I bought the $160.00 reamer. This was so I'd always be able to build another - I merely needed another action to build my 3rd - that action showed up 5 days ago. Now I need a bolt for the action - and a barrel and a stock - got the reamer though, and the lathe - downhill from here - actually would prefer a .450 Marlin Stainless with 22" bl. Oh well.

I'm glad reflex brought this forward, posting pictures of his buffalo and all the performance and link info - excellent thread. The photo's are great.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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