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Ripp,

I think most NE rifles will provide more penetration than the 470, if you're shooting the original loads. Most vintage rifles regulate at about 2025 or 2050fps it seems. But most newer rifles are regulated with the Federal load, which is hotter at about 2100 - 2150fps. Now 50 - 125fps doesn't sound like much, but it is when discussing penetration and the lower load is not all that far from minimum. The PH I elephant hunt with most uses a 470 and his rifle's performance wants for nothing.

I have not hunted Botswana bulls, but PH's I know have. They find no difference between big bulls any where. And Botswana bulls are not the largest, I've been told, the largest come from Kruger/Ghona Rhe Zhou. Perhaps the best example is Ivan Carter, who hunts quite a bit in Botswana and uses a 450NE 3 1/4" Heym. Ivan is still in love with his rifle; that would not be the case if it didn't provide the penetration required, or the stopping power required. Ivan likes to get close, and for non target bulls, has been know to approach until he can wrap the bull with the butt of his rifle. That is a man with (over?) confidence in his read of elephants and in his rifle too, eh?

Rather than a couple of guys with only the experience of a couple of hundred eles, matched in aggragate here on this forum, I'd rather rely on Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, who between them killed roughly 9,000 elephants. They shot all manner of elephants from the huge Gona-Rhe-Zhou bulls to cows to youngsters. They used the 458wm with factory loads to do this. Neither reports any problem, ever, with their 458wm load performance. They used Winchester factory loads, which are beat by the 450NE.

Its true that bulls don't go down with missed brain shots a majority of times or even all that frequently. But, if the proverbial s--t hits the fan, dropping a bull isn't what you need, it is stopping the bull. Big bore NE rifles have a much better track record of doing this than any 416 or 404 or whatever. Watch again Buzz Charlton's DVD and count again how many times he repeates, "...if the hunter had been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullet this elephant would have dropped..." Cows, more likely to be trouble to begin with, drop regularly from missed brain shots - so long as you are using a big bore.

If it were my choice, I'd stick with the 470 and use the savings on another bull quota. If the itch was just too bad, I'd go and get the 500.

BTW, for any of the frontal brain shots I've made or tried, if you were to expand the penetration required to brain the elephant by 50%, the results would still be the same, full penetration of the brain cavity and into the neck. For side Brain shots, I don't know since every one - except one that failed to penetrate at all - exited, but one.

No bull elephant is half again larger than the ones I've killed.

JPK

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