Forums.NitroExpress.com

Hi guys - Tinker brought my attention to this thread and for that I thank him. I find large bores and round balls more than interesting.

Sorry to say, I have no experience with light charges in large bore conical shooting guns on game. My experiences do however, cover reasonable powder charges with smaller bore round ball guns, as well as those same round ball slow twist(ie: 48" or slower twist) rifles using elongated slugs, both to paper accuracy and their effects on moose. My experience also covers the 'bore' size of round balls on moose, but these two also used normal muzzleloading hunting charges, not small, short case ctg. charges.

The smallest bore size I've witnessed being used on moose was a 26" barrelled .45 cal. rifle, shootng a .440" patched round ball with 90gr. 2F powder. The moose was shot at 40 yards and ran 110yards before dropping dead, bled out from the double lung hit. The small ball was flattened against a rib on the far side, having gone between the ribs on the impact side. I do not consider the .45 round ball suitable for game the size of a B.C. moose. The same rifle, shooting Maxiballs, seemed ineffective on moose as the bullets refused to go in a straight line after impact and it took long tracking and multiple shooting to bring the moose down. My constant preaching on round balls is why the person then tried round balls in the .45, with much better success - however, I consider the .45 as a deer ball only, not for moose or elk. Had the ball hit a rib on the way in, it most likely would have failed to make the off lung, desirable for a quick kill.

The .50 and .54 maxiballs shot from the 48" twist TC rifles also failed miserably in the same way as the .45 rifel did, firing the same bullets. The 48" twist was too slow to stabilize the bullet after impact. Note that all three calibres shot well on paper, which leads the shooter to think they are stabilized. They are lonly stabile as fas as penetrating air is concerned. They tend to make 90 degree turns on impact with no more than the hair and fat on a moose, not even having to hit bone to turn. Tracking moose for 3 ro 4 hours trying to bring down the first one hit is not fun at -30 to -50 temps. All of these guys have switched to round balls and all have perfect results now - one shot, one moose. The guys shooting .50's with fast RB twists of 48" are using around 90 to 100gr. 2F. The .54's with this twist do well with 100 to 110gr., while the slower twist shooters 70 to 80" twists are generally using 100 to 120gr. in the .50's and 110 to 140gr. in the .54's. Charges will vary as I know guys who use only 80gr. in .50's thorugh .60's for deer, preferring normally to increase the charge some for moose or elk.

The bore rifles from 16 to 10 can get by with smaller charges per ratio to ball weightas they are shooting balls of 400gr. to 650gr. weight. Too, in order to make the 1,800fps to 2,000fps of the small bores, inordinate powder charge would have to be used. In real life, they cannot obtain these velocities. We strive for 1,550fps normally. With 140gr. of Swiss in a 16 bore, you will see 1,800fps. In my 14 bore, with a 480gr. ball, I was unable to hit 1,800fps with 330gr. of powder. That one registered 1,770fps, only 70 fps more than 200gr. gave me. The barrel length was a hunting one of 30" for the English style rifle used. The bore rifles stagger moose. The moose actually shrinks form impact. The smaller, higher velocity rifles case an immediate startled run. The big bores usually drop the animal where it's standing sometimes immediately, other times after standing, slighty collapsed in stature and looking very sick, or it slowly walks away depending on the hit, up to 30 yards before expiring. One thing is apparent in comparring the results I've seen from .45 through 10 bore, is size matters. Powder charges should be used to deliver as flat a trajectory as regulation will allow. The flatter the trajectory, the easier it is to hit the perfect spot. That is the centre to centre-low lungs(to include arteries or heart), where-ever they might be, depending on the animal being shot. Some animals live high & centred in the chest, others low and forward. Bore rifles rule with large game. These animals can easily be shot with smaller calibred rifles, but the animals rarely show signs they've been it - they merely run off as if only startled. Too, they don't leave any hole that leaks blood. There is never a blood trail from a moose shot with round balls. Big bores stagger them - no uncertainty of the hit, and will leave an entry hole that leaks a bit, but then, with a perect broadsize shot, the exit hole sprays considerably. Small bore balls don't exit - just like most modern bullets.

The notation givin in another's post about a small powder charge, large lead load was attributed to a shot charge in a smooth bore, I had been lead to believe. In practise, this works - ie: 12 to 14 bore, 1 1/8oz shot, 2 1/2 drams of powder = good patterns and good killing power, ie: more shot volume than powder volume. Adding more powder usually causes holes in the pattern.

An expample of a Moose Kill with a 'descent' bore sized rifle. In this case, it was a 14 bore rifle, firing 165gr. of 2F GOEX with a .683" pure lead ball patched in .022" Denim. Paper ctg. had a .685" WW ball due to alloys casting slightly larger in size. I usually say the gun shoots .684" for an average. The muzzle velocity of these loads is 1,550fps. For this rifle, 100 meters is point blank.

The first moose I shot with the 14 bore ball was standing some 90 meters away and needed 2 balls for the kill. It showed most emphatically what I'm talking about with the big bores stopping or staggering power, so bear with me and try to visualize this end of a hunt.
: I'd tracked this moose for what seemed to be a mile, before catching up. The moose was on the other side of a meadow of willow bushes, a mere 10 meters from the bush line. The light was starting to fade, as it does in the Chetwynd/Dawson Creek area of BC. If I wanted this moose, it had to be now. This was my first hunt with the 14 bore my brother had built for me, although I'd shot it for the winter and summer 1986 season at rendezvous. many learned of it's power when shooting, but mostly recognised it's incredible long range accuracy on the 300 meter steel plate. None who shot it, missed, but few wanted another shot. It's 165gr. charge with a 480gr. ball did casue it to back up smartly. The moose!
: After a steady hold, usual for moose, the sights just don't wiggle at all, boom - the ball hit a sea of willows before impacting the shoulder about 1/2 way down on the leg, pddddddddddddddd-thwouck - what a sound!! breaking the bone fairly low but adjacent to the middle of the ribs and exiting out the other side of the leg's muscle to stop against a rib without penetrating through, into the rib cage. The ball was expanded only slightly from the bone, but showed multuple grooving around it's nose from the willows it plowed through before hitting the moose. It must have hit well over a dozen, some up to 3/4" thick before impacting. It's a wonder it even hit the moose. On impact, I could see the bull stagger sideways a step or maybe even 2, the turn around to present his other side, standing, shaking his head side to side as if trying to clear his mind. This gave me another chance as I quickly reloaded with a paper ctg. which had a .685" WW ball & the same charge as before. This shot, made from a slightly clearer angle a couple steps over, only struck a few willows, plainly heard, Pddd-thwuouk hitting in the middle of the rib cage, same 90 meter range. Impacting sqare on a rib, it punched through but also broke out a 6" long piece of that same rib, incredibely, ripping it out of the heavy muscle and tissue and driving that 6" long chard of bone completely though both lungs on a downward angle to stick between two ribs on the off side, down low, near their tips, just like a knife thrust. The ball carried on across the rib cage in a straight line, obviously still stable, making 3" holes through both lungs, then smashed into off shoulder bone, high hear the start of the blade, about 2" higher than where the first ball had punched through this same leg bone. It came to rest against the hide, slighlty flattened. At the shot, the moose turned 90 degrees while dropping his hind quarters to a sitting position, his butt on the ground, head and rack held up high and shaking his rack side to side. Being double lunged at his time, the third shot was superfluous. The paper ctgs. I'd developed allow for a quick (for a muzzleloader) 8 second reload and shot. This shot, loaded with a WW alloy ball, Whwhacccck clak/clak/clak! - struck between the shoulders, smack dab in the middle, slicing down through the vertical blades and hitting the spine dead centre. The ball tore a 1" hole through the spine, then between the lobes of the lung fronts to exit out the chest and brisket and clack through the bush as it hit the odd branch or small tree. Of course, at that shot, the moose dropped like a rock.

Small calibre balls do not apply to this situation. On this moose, he may have been lost due to lack of penetration of bone or missed entirely due to the willows. They fail badly at this. Only properly stabilized slugs can compete in penetration with large bore round balls, and even then, the small bore slug lacks the impressive 'stopping' & "staggering" power of a bore-sized ball. To me, bore - sized means anything over 17 bore.

FPE does not have much if anything to do with killing or stopping power. One merely has to do some comparrisons to see this. I've seen a .54 RB, driven at 1,800fps muzzle velocity, drop a big bull moose in 40 yards. That shot was made at 170 yards. Impact energy was 790 fpe - not total energy, but 790fpe LESS than noted for being minimum for deer - of course, it's the self proclaimed experts (gun writers) who set these standards and put all their faith in FPE. That .54 RB had 210fpe at impact, yet went through a rib, holed both lungs and the heat and came to rest on the off side. It had enough poop left to push the hide away from the moose's side and create a 4" circle of blood shotting in the conective tissue. The moose bolted at impact and dropped dead midstride, 40 yards from impact. Does that make the .54 RB a 170 yard mose gun? Had I been the guide, I wouldn't have let the hunter shoot. It does show rather graphically that FPE has little to do with killing power. One gun writer's minimum for moose is 1,500fpe. That .54RB was 1,290fpe short of his minimum. Some people get paid by the word, not for the word.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras