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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges
      13/07/08 10:36 PM

Quote:



yes, its my understanding that every other bullet design than a roundball fired without a spin will keyholing when it leave the barrel. straigth rifling will not change this,it's physics, the only thing straigth rifling will do is to give higher pressure. smooth barrels give lower pressure with slug's than with shotloads.
maybe there was some kind of "magic" thinking about straight rifling around in this days. a point most time's overlocked. and dont forget that not everything is rigth because it's to find in period books. they have making the same kind's of error's like we do.
muzzle velocity's and energy's are the same the guy's were knowing from the muzzle loader before. that make them surprise about the flat shoting 11 mm /.45 cartridges that come in use after 1870.
nobody have ever dream of such ballistic before.




Lancaster,

now I understand why you were puzzled - to our current understanding such bullets should not work with smoothbores.
It will be difficult for us to find out what shooters thought back then (interesting to note that they were all reloaders, too), and why they did certain things. There may be rational reasons, some old superstitions or simply crazy ideas. Actually, it's quite the same as today ....

To our modern understanding, those old muzzleloading rifles and the first breechloaders were really underpowered. Still the old-timers managed to bring down big game, but it was not a simple task.
Here is an excerpt from a German book on big game hunting (Die Hohe Jagd, 1905). In short, it says that with the then modern BP express and nitro cartridges the need of searching for wounded game is much smaller.

„.... dass infolge der Verbesserung unserer Jagdwaffen die Nachsuche nicht entfernt mehr die Bedeutung hat, wie noch vor 40 Jahre. Als ich damals in die Jägerpraxis eintrat, schoss noch die Mehrzahl der Hochwildjäger mit Rundkugeln aus Vorderladerbüchsen, selbst wenn sie beim Scheibenschiessen die Spitzkugel bevorzugten; wer über 100 Schritt hinaus auf einen nicht ganz breit stehenden Hirsch schoss, wurde leichtsinnig genannt, wo man auf gute Jagdpflege hielt.
Damals gaben weite, langdauernde Nachsuchen den Hauptgesprächsstoff unter Jägern ab; mit Spannung folgte man den ausführlichen Erzählungen alter Weidmänner über die Wechselfälle einer solchen Nachsuche ..... . Wer sich lässig oder ungewandt bei der Nachsuche zeigte, konnte trotz aller sonstiger Geschicklichkeit im Anbirschen oder Schiessen nicht Anspruch auf den Namen eines guten Jägers machen.
Wie hat sich das durch die Verwendung von Expressbüchsen und Büchsen mit Mantelgeschossen und Nitropulver geändert! Die Mehrzahl der einigermassen gut getroffenen Stücke liegt im Feuer oder bricht angesichts des Schützen zusammen, tut sich bei weniger guten Schüssen in geringer Entfernung schon nieder, sodass man das Verenden abwarten oder nach vorsichtiger Annäherung, oft auch ohne solche, durch einen zweiten Schuss beschleunigen kann ....
In meiner Jugend war es das gewöhnliche, dass beschossenes Rotwild dem Schützen aus den Augen entschwand. Dann wurde der Anschuss aufgesucht und, fand man Birschzeichen, die auf einen guten Schuss hindeuteten, so wartete man dennoch, indem man sich hinsetzte, das mitgenommene Frühstück verzehrte oder sich die Pfeife ansteckte, oder eins nach dem andern tat, eine bis zwei Stunden; oft ging man auch nach Hause, um nach mehreren Stunden mit einem oder mehreren Jagdgefährten zum Anschusse zurückzukehren. War ein Schweisshund zur Verfügung, so musste schon deshalb einige Stunden gewartet werden, weil dieser, damit er ferm bleibt, nur auf kalten Fährten gearbeitet werden soll. Die am Nachmittag beschossenen Stücke, deren Zusammenbrechen man nicht sah oder hörte, durften erst am nächsten Morgen aufgesucht werden und waren dann häufig schon anbrüchig. War ein schlechter Schuss zu vermuten, so wurde auch bei hellem Tage 5-6 Stunden mit der Nachsuche gewartet.
Das ist jetzt vorbei; Vorderladerbüchsen sind wohl nirgends mehr im Gebrauch, sehr selten noch Lefaucheux-Büchsen. Die Wirkung der modernen Waffen und Geschosse .... ist eine derartige, dass Nachsuchen zu den Ausnahmen gehören. Soll man das beklagen? Wohl hatten die Nachsuchen einen grossen Reiz und gaben dem Jäger vortreffliche Gelegenheit, seine weidmännischen Fähigkeiten zu üben; dem standen aber die verlängerten Todesqualen des angeschossenen Wildes gegenüber.“

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* slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster 11/07/08 11:50 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   11/01/21 05:22 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges EDELWEISS   11/01/21 11:56 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   12/01/21 12:51 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges EDELWEISS   12/01/21 06:15 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   12/01/21 09:29 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges EDELWEISS   12/01/21 12:20 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   12/01/21 12:27 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/01/21 04:48 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges DarylS   16/01/21 06:04 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   12/07/08 04:04 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges 88MauSporter   13/07/08 04:52 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 05:16 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 05:33 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   13/07/08 07:17 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges rigbymauser   13/07/08 04:01 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges Bramble   12/07/08 08:44 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges rigbymauser   12/07/08 04:25 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 06:47 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges CptCurlAdministrator   12/07/08 08:28 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:11 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   13/07/08 06:54 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 04:11 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges Mike_Bailey   14/07/08 06:00 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   15/07/08 02:41 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   15/07/08 03:10 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   15/07/08 03:25 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   15/07/08 03:29 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   15/07/08 04:01 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   15/07/08 04:05 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   15/07/08 06:56 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges *DELETED* beleg2   15/07/08 12:05 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges *DELETED* xausa   15/07/08 02:00 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/07/08 04:18 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   16/07/08 04:32 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/07/08 04:39 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges buckland   19/02/14 06:16 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   19/02/14 07:22 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges buckland   23/02/14 07:22 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   23/02/14 09:03 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   23/02/14 08:06 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges drbd   23/02/14 08:50 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   23/02/14 08:53 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges kuduae   24/02/14 06:52 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges drbd   21/02/14 07:13 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges drbd   23/02/14 02:33 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges DarylS   23/02/14 04:08 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   23/02/14 05:50 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   23/02/14 05:55 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/07/08 04:50 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/07/08 04:57 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/07/08 05:11 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/07/08 05:12 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   16/07/08 09:21 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   16/07/08 01:47 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   16/07/08 02:39 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   17/07/08 01:15 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   17/07/08 05:21 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   18/07/08 03:26 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   18/07/08 06:32 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges *DELETED* lancaster   18/07/08 05:12 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   19/07/08 05:03 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   19/07/08 05:13 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   19/07/08 06:15 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges rigbymauser   19/07/08 03:05 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   19/07/08 03:54 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   20/07/08 04:24 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges beleg2   20/07/08 12:37 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   20/07/08 02:47 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges beleg2   20/07/08 06:24 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   20/07/08 01:38 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   20/07/08 04:38 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges DarylS   30/05/11 03:50 AM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges DarylS   30/05/11 08:56 AM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges DarylS   02/02/12 01:12 AM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   17/02/14 03:32 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges drbd   18/02/14 07:38 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   19/02/14 07:02 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   20/07/08 09:41 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   20/07/08 09:49 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   20/07/08 09:55 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   20/07/08 10:21 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   20/07/08 10:29 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   21/07/08 02:48 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   18/05/10 01:44 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   13/07/08 10:36 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges xausa   15/07/08 01:35 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   15/07/08 02:39 AM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   14/07/08 05:15 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   14/07/08 01:58 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:16 PM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:24 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:33 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:35 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:42 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:46 PM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges fuhrmann   13/07/08 01:04 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 04:15 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 04:20 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 04:41 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 04:52 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   13/07/08 05:10 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges tinkerModerator   12/07/08 03:25 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:04 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:11 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:17 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:18 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:21 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:29 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:35 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:37 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:39 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:43 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:47 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:54 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:59 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:01 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:05 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:12 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:15 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:16 AM
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. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges degoins   12/07/08 01:48 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 01:37 AM
. * * Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges lancaster   12/07/08 12:32 AM

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