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bwanakim
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Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Raick Erigis 470
      #99079 - 13/03/08 03:17 AM

Anyone have any comments on this? It's a 470 made by Raick Erigis, presumably Belgian, although even the people at WR don't know anything about it. Looks nice, but their photos are always dim, and against a black background. Very hard to discern details!



http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_2_zoom.php?id=26001&view=1

--------------------
bwanakim


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tinker
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Posts: 4835
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: bwanakim]
      #99082 - 13/03/08 04:11 AM

The maker's name is Raick Frères

That's the Raick Family (brothers)

They did good work.
That rifle looks refinished, decent work...

Here's a link to a very little bit of information on the Brothers Raick

http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20q%20r/a%20raick%20gb.htm

Good luck!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: bwanakim]
      #99084 - 13/03/08 04:23 AM

Kim,

Raick Frères was a retail firm located in Leige, and closed there doors after WWII. They did finish work on guns but did not manufacture guns complete in house. I have seen several guns marked this way. I would need to see the proofs to determine it's age and manufacture. The price seems quite fair, considering that WR agency sole purpose is to make large profits on there inventory.

I hope you find this information useful.


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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: ]
      #99087 - 13/03/08 04:48 AM

Ya don't negotiate, you don't find out how much it costs. Given the prices I have seen on Gunsinternational, and at several other dealers, WR may be on the high side, but hardly the only ones who are pricing stuff at the limits. If they or another dealer has something that is of interes, I always ask, and make an offer. If the answer is no, I say thank you and shop elsewhere. If they know you are someone who can pay for a gun, rather than a tire kicker, then they are usually willing to negotiate.

I have had the same experience with Cabelas. They offer some neat doubles from time to time as they are a cash buyer on a country-wide basis. If you know one of their better managers, and he knows you can pay for the gun rather than just spin his wheels, then some of those prices can be shaved, often quite a bit off posted. It also depends on how deep they are buried in the rifle.

For example, Bass Pro (not, in my opinion, a major player at all) has a fairly nice, and fairly rare, WR boxlock in 25-3000. That gun was sold a year or so ago in the high teens. Bass is absolutely buried in the gun and now has it priced at more than twice what it should sell for. Unless someone who doesn't know his butt from a hot rock pays their price, they will keep it until they are willing to bite the bullet and take a loss to move inventory.

Used rifles, used vintage cars, all the same. Ask and sell are not always the same, and money talks and bull walks, so if you see something you like, call Kevin and see what he will do, especially if it has been on the site for a while. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: dnovo]
      #99088 - 13/03/08 04:50 AM

By the way, George at Champlin had some neat and reasonably priced doubles that have come in recently, including a Continental in 470. Those were built by a decent Belgian mfg in the early 50's and this gun is right around 10K Why not call him? George is a straight shooter (sorry about that) and JJ can check and fix anything you need. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: dnovo]
      #99094 - 13/03/08 06:11 AM

Quote:



For example, Bass Pro (not, in my opinion, a major player at all) has a fairly nice, and fairly rare, WR boxlock in 25-3000. That gun was sold a year or so ago in the high teens. Bass is absolutely buried in the gun and now has it priced at more than twice what it should sell for. Unless someone who doesn't know his butt from a hot rock pays their price, they will keep it until they are willing to bite the bullet and take a loss to move inventory.






Dave

Is that 250-3000 the one at the Bass Pro in Las Vegas, Nevada ?

I looked at one there a month or 2 ago (Feb).


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500Nitro
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: bwanakim]
      #99095 - 13/03/08 06:14 AM

Quote:

Anyone have any comments on this? It's a 470 made by Raick Erigis, presumably Belgian, although even the people at WR don't know anything about it.





If they seriously "don't know anything about it" then they should do some reading.

I find it hard to believe they don't know the Raick brothers
and guns under the Raick Frères name or do they only sell to dumb bastards who don't know better ?

Edited by 500Nitro (13/03/08 06:14 AM)


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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #99109 - 13/03/08 10:12 AM




Dave

Is that 250-3000 the one at the Bass Pro in Las Vegas, Nevada ?

I looked at one there a month or 2 ago (Feb).




Yes, and from what I can tell from the photos, it is the same gun that has been sold a couple of times over the last few years at a tick under $20,000. Given the fact that WR, who is reputed to be unrealistically high on their prices, has a droplock 318 listed at their site at $29,000, and I say some good closeups of that gun and it is very, very nice and highly engraved, how can this boxlock which is far less 'high end' be worth the ask.

I would like this gun in this chambering to flesh out my favorites in one swoop, I like WRs in general and small doubles in particular, but the price is just plain silly.

By the way, how does this gun look 'in the flesh' just in case they ever get realistic? Decent shape? Condition of bores, lock up? If its nice, I'd like to keep an eye on it. If it has issues, I won't bother. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: dnovo]
      #99110 - 13/03/08 10:16 AM

Kim: Again, if you are interested in a 470 boxlock at a reasonable price, check out the ones listed above at the Champlin site. I have my 470 niche filled or I would grab the higher priced of the ones he has as a great gun for a great price.

If nothing else, talking to George is always a pleasure and you will come away not with just an honest statement of the gun, but with plenty of nuggets of true gun lore. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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Westley375
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Reged: 18/04/06
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Loc: Montana USA
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: dnovo]
      #99111 - 13/03/08 10:26 AM

Sinner- Read your rip on Westley richards....not cool. They may have high prices but that's what some of you seem willing to pay BECAUSE THEY SELL GUNS it's not a museum. You call it greed...so how many Double Rifles do you own "Mr Greedy" Just because you can't get them at bargain basement prices is no need to belittle them.

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bwanakim
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Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: dnovo]
      #99112 - 13/03/08 10:57 AM

Thanks to all who answered my query. I have sold quite a few guns through George, and J.J. has done quite a bit of work for me on doubles and single shots. Likewise, I have sold guns through WR and bought one from them--a beautiful best quality 461 No. 2 Gibbs Farquharson that was underpriced, believe it or not. They are not really knowledgeable on single shots, as they will admit. Kevin has always treated me well, and is honest when he has doubts, which brings me back to this rifle. He sent me a photo tonight of the barrel markings and honest to God it really does say "RAICK ERIGIS" on one barrel and "LEIGE BELGIUM" on the other. This appears right in front of the quarter rib. I have certainly heard of Raick Freres and appreciate the web link. After looking at this link, could this be a model of gun and not a manufacturer? In other words, made by Raick Freres, but a type or style? WR hasn't shot it, so they can't say anything about its regulation.

I like the engraving style and the fact it is an ejector,so will have to decide whether to wade on in. I've owned a .470 before, a Manton ejector, but sold it as it was short and very ungainly. I sold it three years ago, and when I see how much even ca-ca (Spanish) is going for, I become ill as mine went for a relative song. It even shot well!

A note about Cabela's --I called the store in Post Falls, ID about a 475 No. 2 Wilkes they have. The yahoo I talked to informed me it was black powder proofed. I said "Huh?" He said " yeah, the letters BP are on the barrels." If this was yours, how would you like this expert trying to sell it? At least he now knows this means Birmingham Proof." By the way, it's $31,999. Here in San Antonio, there is a 7X57 Rimmed Rigby sidelock they are asking $50K for. Unfortunately, Rigby never made a DR in that caliber as confirmed by Paul Roberts, and the barrels are marked "Ferlach, Austria." I offered to buy it as a shooter. He said they'd sell it for what they have in it--$38,000! I asked him to keep my name iname just in case. Go figure!

--------------------
bwanakim


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: Westley375]
      #99115 - 13/03/08 11:13 AM

I feel a retailer can ask what they want. It either sells or it doesn't.
What kills me is the unscrupulous dealers who offer WAY below value and attempt to paint your guns in a bad light.
Example: I brought my J&W Tolley DR to a seemingly reputable shop to see about consigning, and the owner proceded to tell me that he thought it "probably" was a shotgun which someone had made rifle barrels for and that he had never heared of a Tolley. "Probably not worth much" was his response!
What kind of ass does he think I am??
This guy likes to talk "safari" and "dangerous game" and "double rifles" all day long and obviously had no idea that I know a thing or two of those subjects. If I was somebody less knowledgeble, he would have taken me!
WR can ask what they want - in fact, I like the Alex Henry 12 bore they have. The ask seems about right to me. Haven't seen it in person though.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: bwanakim]
      #99125 - 13/03/08 12:32 PM

Kim,

Perhaps the variable in the marking was the retailer there in Leige, for the brothers. I have some reference on them, I will take a close look at it tomorrow for you.

I find most Cabelas stores to be run fairly well, a lot of the guys are green but there learning. The company is expanding at a rate of about 8 stores a year, and fine gun rooms in most of them. That has got to be hard to keep up with.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: Westley375]
      #99127 - 13/03/08 12:41 PM

Quote:

Sinner- Read your rip on Westley richards....not cool. They may have high prices but that's what some of you seem willing to pay BECAUSE THEY SELL GUNS it's not a museum. You call it greed...so how many Double Rifles do you own "Mr Greedy" Just because you can't get them at bargain basement prices is no need to belittle them.




My previous post:
Quote:

Kim,

Raick Frères was a retail firm located in Leige, and closed there doors after WWII. They did finish work on guns but did not manufacture guns complete in house. I have seen several guns marked this way. I would need to see the proofs to determine it's age and manufacture. The price seems quite fair, considering that WR agency sole purpose is to make large profits on there inventory.

I hope you find this information useful.




Did I offend you? Because I can't see anything in my post that refers to you, or "rips" on WR?


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bwanakim
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Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: ]
      #99132 - 13/03/08 01:34 PM

Sinner: That would be great.

Tinker: That web link was very useful.

Thanks to you both!

--------------------
bwanakim


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: ]
      #99136 - 13/03/08 01:40 PM

On the mistaken/mispelled/misunderstood name...

Consider the numerous common cheap turn of the century Belgian guns marked "W. Richard" or "W. Richards" that weren't in any way Westley Richards guns. I find it just a little amusing that this is on the WR site.

I've also seen numerous rifles advertised as made by 'the prestigious maker, B.Blindee...' (proof stamp indicating a rifle set up to run jacketed bullets)

Currently on the Cabelas website there's a shotgun with barrels made by one of the Belgian Bernard brothers (not Leopold Bernard of Paris), advertised as being the craftwork of the maker 'J. Bertari'
I've thought of writing them a note to explain the mistake, but haven't given it any more effort than this.
If anyone here knows anyone at the Hazelwood Cabelas, drop them a line...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinker
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: bwanakim]
      #99138 - 13/03/08 01:43 PM

Bwanakim-

You're welcome!


-Tinker


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: ]
      #99140 - 13/03/08 02:59 PM

So it does appear as if Walter Clode is here posting in his usual obnoxious way. Interesting that Westley Richards' representative dares not mention his own name!

Sinner,

No need to worry. Obviously Clode cannot read for the life of him. He has more deficiencies than merely being obnoxious. There had to be some connection between being obnoxious and being semi literate.

Good hunting, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #99145 - 13/03/08 04:16 PM


mehulkamdar

Is Walter the Father or the Son ?


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Westley375
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 147
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Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #99165 - 14/03/08 01:41 AM

Brilliant....Say/Post something nasty and later edit it ...I know what I read.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: bwanakim]
      #99176 - 14/03/08 02:51 AM

Quote:

Sinner: That would be great.

Tinker: That web link was very useful.

Thanks to you both!





Kim,

Here is what I could find for you, on this Leige gunmaker and retailer.

Raick Frères established 1807, suceeded by A. Raick in 1895, filed with Max Neumann, liégeoise manufacture of arms and trademarked ~Manera~ May 20, 1924. Passing over and appended to Raick Brothers May 30, 1939. Latest filings date to 1948, for manufacture and retail of firearms.

(Frères means brothers in French), (Erigis is the plural for more than one Raick).

It is most likely that “Raick Erigis” was the retail standard at the time this specimen was produced.

I hope this helps, it looks like a really neat little gun.


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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: ]
      #99219 - 14/03/08 06:17 PM

I'd think the purpose of any business is to make as much

money as possible legally and morally. Some folks don't

worry at all about the later, some folks don't worry at

all about EITHER! If I had a business I wouldn't lie to a

guy who brings a firearm to me for an appraisal, so as to

sell it through my store or web site or where ever. If I

say it's worth 15K retail and the guy says ask 25K I'd warn

him he's likely in for a 10 year wait for a buyer! If a

buyer came in and asked what I thought the rifle was

worth I'd tell the truth. If some buyer offered 23K on the

rifle I'd ask the seller if he wanted to take that figure and

if he agreed then a deal is made.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member


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bwanakim
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Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #99230 - 15/03/08 12:02 AM

Getting back to the original purpose of my post, which was the rifle, I want to again express my appreciation to all who contributed to my understanding of the origins of this piece. A friend who lives in Bozeman is going to eyeball it for me next week, and let me know what he thinks. Yes, I could send for it, and then send it back if I didn't like it, but this fellow knows my tastes, and we can save a lot of money and time in shipping, cashier's checks, FFL dealers, and the like.

As far as prices go,I'll admit to being the king of chiselers. By the same token, as a lawyer who used to practice a lot of corporate law, I know the only real purposes of a corporation are to make as much money as legally possible for the shareholders, and to insulate them from personal liability. As such, even though I personally detest the ignoramuses at Bass Pro Shop and Cabela's, I try to keep this in mind.

--------------------
bwanakim


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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: bwanakim]
      #99236 - 15/03/08 02:08 AM

"By the same token, as a lawyer who used to practice a lot of corporate law, I know the only real purposes of a corporation are to make as much money as legally possible for the shareholders, and to insulate them from personal liability."

And as a lawyer who still does that, I recall the comments of the CEO an insurance company I was representing, "Hell Dave, that's too much money. We are in business to collect premiums and invest them, not to pay claims! Can't you explain that to the judge?" Yes, I could and, with tongue in cheek, did. Thankfully he was a law school classmate and just laughed rather than ripping off my head. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Raick Erigis 470 [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #99237 - 15/03/08 02:18 AM

Quote:

So it does appear as if Walter Clode is here posting in his usual obnoxious way. Interesting that Westley Richards' representative dares not mention his own name!

Sinner,

No need to worry. Obviously Clode cannot read for the life of him. He has more deficiencies than merely being obnoxious. There had to be some connection between being obnoxious and being semi literate.

Good hunting, my friend!





Alcohol induced maybe ?


Guys, WR doesn't exactly have that good a name after the BATF raid and the history of one of the employees at the
old WR store etc.


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