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Alberta
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Reged: 03/12/07
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Loc: Canada
.715 Ball loads
      #94477 - 17/01/08 09:21 AM

Does anyone have any .715 ball loads in their manuals or home brews they would like to share?

I am putting together a hard cast .715 load to be shot out of a cyl bore. I have cast a few balls, just need to review some loads and pick out some components.

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9.3x57
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: Alberta]
      #94496 - 17/01/08 12:27 PM

Where is Daryl???

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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jaz
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: Alberta]
      #94736 - 20/01/08 02:20 AM

Go with 19 to 22 grains of Unique. Pressure is still very modest

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: jaz]
      #94753 - 20/01/08 05:43 AM

Alberta- you need to pick up a Lyman shotshell loading book. There are a bunch of loads you can use for base data for developing your own data.
; They list loads form .690" balls to 575gr. Brenneke slugs- in most years of manuals.
; You can extropolate from that data. Always start at the starting load or a few grains (weight) of powder lower.
; A chronograph is useful when developing data.
; Once you get those .715" balls (545gr. in pure lead) to the 1,450fps to 1,500fps range, you'll have close to the equivalence of the 7 dram BP 12 bore load.
; The suggestion of Unique is a good one, but quite soft.
; I'd start around 24gr. and go from there.
: Most ball loads with 7625 and 4756 will end up in the 30gr. to slighlty higher range - BUT - should start around 24.0gr. - whatever is safe with a shot charge of the same weight. The ball will develope slightly lower pressure.
: Remember to use a gas check off a trap of other wad to centre the ball - cup up, of course and one, cup-down on the powder - fibre wads in the middle. Lyman also has some suggestions.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Alberta
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #94785 - 20/01/08 01:26 PM

Thanx Daryl, I just spent some more time serching posts and found lots of information you have given with ball loads in the past. I have got the newest Lyman manual. It has no ball data but does have 525g and 437g slug data as well as buckshot. Between what I have read in your old posts and my manual I think I will be OK to cautiously proceed on my own. I will try the upside down gas check idea to center the ball or a cut down shot cup with the peatals just long enough to support the ball. I have pulled apart a 1 1/8 OZ load and find the ball to be about the same depth as the shot and may just try some 1/ 1/8 OZ shot cups to get me to the right height. I see that you have used the MEC steel shot cups that are round on the bottom. I would like to try somenting like that too but MEC cups are no longer made. I took apart a Federal foster slug and found the wad had the perfect cup for my ball and BBL but it is not offered as a component. Also where do you get your wads from?


My round balls drop from the Lyman mould a little oversized at .718-.719 and weigh 538g with straight W.W. I intend to heat treat them at 375-400f for 1 hour and water quench. My main goal is maximum pentration loads for bear defence and want something that will penetrate end to end with managable recoil out of my Mossberg shotgun.

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: Alberta]
      #94834 - 21/01/08 07:27 AM

WW balls will do all the penetration you will need. I've driven a WW ball through both shoulders of a bull moose with minimal damage to the ball (cuts from bone only) and no flatening. Hardening them further might just be a waste of time.
; I've never used metal cups. Not sure what you read?
: I've picked up AA and other plastic wads at the local trap range and cut off the posts and petals and used those. They work just fine.
: I've assembled a bunch of new RB loads using herco (I've got a bunch) and the base (petals removed) from shot steel shot wads. As there is no cushion, but a nice cup after trimning, they are loaded right side up with the squarish gas check down, as normal. the cup is slightly smaller inside than the ball, but that doens't matter, it'll hold the ball centred.
; I did better shootng with just the gas check off AA wads than with petals left long enough to support the ball. I don't have a theory as to why, it just happened that way.
; To harden the balls, you'll need more than 400F- more like 465F. They will reach maximun hardness in 24 hours after quenching. Immediately after quenching, they'll still be just about as soft as normal WW metal. They take time to re-act to the heat treatment. Minimally hardening them as with 375F to 400F will probably not make any difference to their penetrative power. Straight WW metal will give all you need, I'm sure.
; You can use the data from any loads with like-weight projectiles for similar ballistics. In general, the larger the bore, the bigger the change is needed to make any noteworthy difference.
; As with any handloading senario, always proceed with caution - start low and progress.
; Good luck and keep us/me posted as to your results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #94922 - 22/01/08 08:59 AM

Daryl,
You are saying that you use:

Powder ) Ball or Powder ( ball?

Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: beleg2]
      #94991 - 23/01/08 05:30 AM

Quote:

Daryl,
You are saying that you use:

Powder ) Ball or Powder ( ball?

Thanks
Martin


; Huh? - I don't understand & couldn't find the reference.
; Smokeless Powder then gas check cup down to seal, gas check cup up with the ball & crimp. You may have to use a fibre wad in the middle to adjust wad column height for crimping. I prefer to use folded star crimp. Usually it doesn't quite close completely in the middle and the ball is visible for ID sake.
: For use with black powder: powder, then 2, 1/8" hard card wads, then gas check cup up, then ball, then crimp. Adjust wad column in the middle with card or fibre wads to get proper crimp length.
: Black powder flame will melt the plastic if the gas check in on the powder. You don't want plastic melted onto your bore.
: With this method of loading, undersized balls work just fine as the gas check's cup holds the ball centred when under accelleration up the bore. Since it isn't scrubbing the bore, the ball won't lead the bore, yet it gets launched from the bore's centre at the muzzle, regardless of bore or ball size. undersize, ie: .690" balls can be shot this way from full choked guns and still deliver good accuracy to 75 yards, maybe more. My buddies did this with their Rem 870's just using their duck load and subbing the ball for the shot. Their velocities were low, in the 1,300fps range, but the moose didn't know it. At 50 yards, the WW ball would exit the far side of a 50gallon drum, while Foster slugs wouldn't make it through the impact side. As for buckshot on the steel - well how does lead smears sound? Some guys used normal trap or field wads and put a 20 bore ball inside the wad. this also works, but reduces the ball's weight to about 320gr. for a .610" to .615" ball. Apparently, they kill moose just fine as they should. Incidentlyk it is illegal in some areas to use a shotgun for hunting larger ungulates. Check your game laws. A smooth gun with iron sights specifically developed (by you) for shooting round balls is no longer a shot gun as far as I'm concerned - reference would have to be made in court to the ball guns or double smoothbores for Indian and African game as presented in WW Greener's most excellent book, the 9th edition or "The Gun and it's Development".
; In my double, the midrange Black powder load shot well. That was 5 1/2 drams (150gr.) of 2F. It kicks considerably more than an equivalent load with smokeless, for those who feel the gun must punch the shoudler to have power. The smoke is nice to see, too. The BP loads certianly do 'feel' more powerful. Not too many want to shoot the 7 dram load from a 7 1/2 pound gun. Just about spun me around like a weathercock - but it as accurate. You can duplicate that 7 dram BP load's velocity with smokeless powders and less than 1/2 the recoil- easy to shoot as 1-1/2 ounce magnum lead shot loads?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95009 - 23/01/08 11:46 AM

Daryl,
Thanks that answer my question very well.
After I get back from the beach (LOL) I plan to make some reloading for my smoth bore.
How about .570 ball from a 16 bore. I love my little Ideal and would like to use it for big game.

Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: beleg2]
      #95059 - 24/01/08 05:52 AM

Martin - is your 16 bore choked?
; If it's choked, measure the tightest spot and use a ball as close to that as possible.
; The .570" ball, about 270gr. weight, is commonly used in 24 bore rifles and is a mite small for the 16 bore shotgun.
; I suspect a 20 bore ball might be better sized and much heavier. The 16's nominal size is around .665" or .675". Lyman makes a .662" RB mould. Even with a full choke, the .665" bore would reduce to .625", leaving all the moulds in the .600" to .625" range open for use. Lee makes a cheap RB mould in a couple sizes in between these. .600" and .610" at least. These balls weigh in the 320gr. weight range.
: As the bore size gets smaller, I tend to look toward the heaviest ball I can use in that bore. In a choked gun, that would be whatever 'just' fit the choke.
; If you are stuck with the 24 bore ball, OK, use it, but don't be surprised with the lack of smashing power we've come to expect from the larger bores.
: In actuality, the .570" ball will probably do just fine for most game this side of Africa.
; One thing's for certain, with a bit of handloading work(and a chronograph), you could get some prety fine speeds with that light a ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95060 - 24/01/08 06:34 AM

Daryl,
Thanks
I have some .570 ball from my .58 rifle that I want to try. Also, thanks for the advise on .600 balls. Some time ago I ask one importer about .600 Lee moulds and told me that he have to make a special order for it and it would take some months.
I will ask one .600 mold so I can use it in my 16ga and in my .577 Snider.

Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: beleg2]
      #95105 - 25/01/08 04:25 AM

How will you use a .600 ball in a .577 Snider? Swage it down to the Snider's normal .585" groove diameter?
: I take it your 16 bore is choked 'full'? What does it mic.?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95176 - 25/01/08 11:12 PM

Daryl:
Not too many Sniders actually have a 'normal' .585" groove diameter. My 3-bander is .598, and would digest .600 RBs happily if the cartridge neck still had clearance (it doesn't, and there lies the problem with most original Sniders).

Snider bores must be slugged, and then the real fun begins trying to fit a groove-diameter projectile in the case neck in such a way that it will chamber with safe clearance for neck expansion when fired. The Brits settled on undersized hollow-base projectiles with all manner of expander-plugs fitted, a poor solution accuracy-wise. The guys over on the MH forums load the Coyote heeled bullet (like a .22 rimfire), which appears to be the best solution short of opening up the chamber.

The other solution is to load the ball into the chamber first, followed by a shortened case full of powder closed with a wad (essentially a 'blank').

Hope this doesn't take us too far off topic....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: Marrakai]
      #95184 - 26/01/08 02:25 AM

Gottcha. I'd probably open up the chamber neck to allow seating the ball in the case mouth.
: Your idea of dropping he ball into the chamber then seating a ctg. behind it will be OK as long as the wad at the top of the case contacts or very nearly contacts the ball and holds it there. YOu may find you don't have to shorten the cases at all, as the ball is only groove diameter at the case mouth - not much difference and with then normal tiny bit of relief (throat) in the chamber (probably) the ball will sit perfectly at the case mouth.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (27/01/08 05:55 AM)

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Sarg
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95213 - 26/01/08 08:35 AM

Hi guys

I think beleg2s rifle is a W. Richards 577 Snider DOUBLE ! We have read on it before !
I think !

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: Sarg]
      #95253 - 27/01/08 06:08 AM

Oh yeah - I could hunt happily with that rifle - moose and bear and of course, deer, caribou, elk - you name it.
: With round ball, the case should hold 100gr. to 110gr. 2F, with an Oxyoke lubed wad beneath the ball. While the powder charges are a bit soft of the charge I'd use in a flintlock muzzleloading rifle, it would suffice in the ctg. gun, without vent pressure loss. The round ball will probably be the most acurate as the twist rate is probably better suited to round ball than slug. If the twist is measured at 48" or faster, either will work. The extra weight of powder with round ball over factory loaded ammo with slug should help replace the recoil generated by the factory load - helping with regulation. It may even hold 120gr.2F - the more the merrier for trajectory and penetration. Too, WW alloy balls could be used for even greater penetration. This would become an excellent non-dangerous game rifle, with bears included.
: My buddies did good work indeed with cloth patched round balls in their 12 bore shotshells - so this also is a consideration for the Snider or smoothbore as the case may be - that is, an undersized ball, cloth patched to take up the windage. In this case, a card wad should be beneath the patched ball to protect the powder from becoming wet from the patch. Hoppe's #9 PLUS is about as good as anything for this use. Note #9 "PLUS". This is a BP solvent. Nitro solvents don't soften nor mix with black powder residue and therefore foul badly. If using one of he fakes, it's up to you, I have little experience with these but still used BP solvents for lube.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95582 - 31/01/08 12:35 PM

Sarg is right, this is my W.Richards .577 Snider.
This year I will shot it at last. Every time I beggan working on it something get in the way.
I have found a good load for my Kodiak .58" and, as soon as I can get a .600" mould, I will try to find its regulating load.
Next proyect will be my beloved 16Ga Ideal shotgun.
Sorry for been late but Im on vacation at the beach, far from my computer.

Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: beleg2]
      #95638 - 01/02/08 04:29 AM

Good luck with the projects, Martin - keep us posted on your results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95642 - 01/02/08 05:50 AM

Great Stuff!
I am working this direction with my Cape guns and 16ga side. I was working with the ball diameter inside a shot cup. I will take this great advise as well.
Matin:
Enjoy la playa! I was at Vina and Agarrobo this time last year.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #95654 - 01/02/08 10:24 AM

20 bore balls fit easily inside a shotcup. With a 3" or 3- 1/2" chamber, one might even try for a double-ball load. These would be only around the 600gr. level and OK in most 12's. That's only 1-3/8 oz.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95680 - 01/02/08 02:02 PM

Daryl:
The 20 bore balls in a 12 ga or a 16 ga within the shot cup? I have been experimenting with the 16 ga and using .50 balls inside shot cups to clear my full chokes. I have several double ball loads with BP substitute (777). I also have a lot of brass 2.5" 16ga cases. Everything is loose inside these, so I was wondering about lining them inside with heavy paper to bring them closer to paper shell thickness.
Suggestions?

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #95716 - 02/02/08 01:56 AM

.50's are pretty small. The lyman book gives loads for 20 bores, using shot cups with .54 calibre grooved bullets. Yes- the bullets inside the shot cut. I assume they are suggesting this useage in rifled barrels.
; The guys I knew who used 20 bore balls inside shot cups were shooting them from their muzzleloading shotguns as well as their choked duck guns. As well, some took to cloth patching a .680" ball for use in choked shotguns as well as thin cloth patched .715"RB's in cylinder bored guns - all loaded inside plastic shotshells. The ball whould pass the choke just fine and hold about 5" at 50 yards with just the bead for a sight.
: Measure your choke and measure your bore back from the choke. Too- you must be able to push or tap the ball with cup out the choke - it will/should be VERY tight, but you should be able to do it. That is how you get the right size for shooting balls in a choke. If it's too tight, it may ópen'the choke somewhat- same scenario as shooting steel shot in a gun not designed for it. With double guns, you could loosen the ribs as the muzzles try to expand.
: Most full chokes have 40 points of choke. ie: .040" of choke - .020" per side.
; So- in a 16 bore, IF the actual bore measured .662", you would have very close to a .622" bore with a full choke.
; Measure the choke and that is the size ball you CAN shoot if you want. Of course, you can shoot anything smaller as well- but - smaller means lighter and more critical of wads to take up the slack and keep the ball in the middle of the bore. If it bounces up the bore, side to side it wil be very innacurate, just as the round ball loads were in the early 'pumpkin ball' loads. They used .63" and .64" round balls in a 12 bore - these had .050" or more windage, almost 1/16" too small for a choked gun.
; I sugest you buy lead or steel wads and cut the gas checks off the bottom and use those as I've suggested before as they centre the ball in the bore and shoot with improved accuracy over loose balls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #95727 - 02/02/08 02:53 AM

I'll let you al know my progress as well.
Thanks, Daryl for the experience and advise.
Thanks, Martin, for the interesting subject.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: beleg2]
      #95999 - 05/02/08 04:24 AM

Quote:

Daryl,
You are saying that you use:

Powder ) Ball or Powder ( ball?

Thanks
Martin


: Martin- I get what you meant ie:
: With smokeless powder it would be:
; powder ) wads ( ball
: Fibre or card Wads are used to get the proper height for crimping.

: With black powder loads it would be
; powder II ( ball
; II means hard card wads - 1 or 2 (or more) to get the wad height you need for the proper crimp.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: .715 Ball loads [Re: DarylS]
      #96438 - 10/02/08 12:19 PM

Daryl,
Thats what I was trying to say.
Thank for the explanation.
Martin

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