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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
nice vintage 8 bore
      #94109 - 12/01/08 02:13 PM



http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=1057

Quote:

Josef Just in Ferlach, Austria: An 8 Bore Paradox Made in 1925 as a single bore with a Jones Style Underlever with rebounding hammer on the right back lock. It has a 1/2 round and 1/2 octagon barrel with an integral front ramp and 1 standing rear sight. The bore of this gun .880" from throat to the paradox choke, the 6 groove paradox choke is 4" long with a bore size of .852" and a groove of .872" and the chamber is 3" long at .915" with a rim diameter of 1.034". The piece comes out at 11 lbs. 15 oz., has 65% coverage of scroll engraving and retains 75% original case colors. The bore on this gun is as new and it overall is a 90-92% gun. It has a set trigger, cheekpiece for the right hand and 14 1/2" LOP over a pad. The markings are J. Just and Ferlach Austria.




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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 4799
Loc: Alleghany County, Virginia, US...
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: 500grains]
      #94135 - 12/01/08 11:16 PM

Rock my world!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: CptCurl]
      #94146 - 13/01/08 04:45 AM

Nice looking gun!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: CptCurl]
      #94149 - 13/01/08 05:54 AM

Quote:

Rock my world!

Curl




Let's keep it clean now.


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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 264
Loc: Alaska
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: ]
      #94152 - 13/01/08 07:06 AM

There was a Josef Just single paradox 8 on one of the auction sites repeatedly about 2 years about for $4000 or $4500 and it took a while to sell. It didn't look this nice though as I recall.

Also, I've never seen a single with a dolls head! One of the very few rules I've learned about old guns is to never say never. Very interesting.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4718
Loc: Idaho
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #94161 - 13/01/08 08:29 AM

I'd be curious to know the intended use of such a gun built in 1925.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2687
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94245 - 14/01/08 10:41 PM

Well they really only have one use....!
(...or two, if you count rhino!)

I remember seeing a doll's head on an equatorial rifle (12-bore single) years ago, but no others. Sadly, big singles like this do not turn up very often in my part of the world.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 17865
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: Marrakai]
      #94275 - 15/01/08 06:45 AM

Simply breathtakingly beautiful.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4639
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: Daryl_S]
      #94304 - 15/01/08 01:26 PM

There are 470's that weigh that much. Which would you rather have to hunt Ele or Buff with?

PS: I'll take the single shot.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94320 - 15/01/08 04:35 PM

Quote:

I'd be curious to know the intended use of such a gun built in 1925.





Pole vaulting!


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4718
Loc: Idaho
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: ]
      #94339 - 16/01/08 12:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd be curious to know the intended use of such a gun built in 1925.





Pole vaulting!




C'mon, nobody else is straining to think who had this thing built and what for, where, etc?

In 1925, an 8-bore Paradox? Austrian to-boot? I'd love to know who had it built, where it was headed, if it ever got there, what it shot {and what it didn't...}, why it is in great shape as opposed to used hard, etc.

Smith and Wesson offers a service to research or "letter" their revolvers and while most of the time the info gained is pretty boring stuff, sometimes the "shipped to" portion reveals an interesting story. I think this thing has a story, at least during its "commissioning".

Those of you who are knowledgeable about these things, isn't an Austrian 8 ga jungle gun a bit of an oddity as made in 1925?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 17865
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94358 - 16/01/08 05:56 AM

9.3x57- I think this rifle is the result of someone displaying their workmanship alone - nothing more. It was not built for a specific animal at that stage of the game, in 1925, I mean. It is a "Look what I built" type of gun. it is a masterpiece - workmanship thought dead after 1910 - but still alive. I love it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2687
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: Daryl_S]
      #94702 - 19/01/08 01:59 PM

So...., what? No elephants were shot by Europeans in 1925?

C'mon guys!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Loc: Idaho
Re: nice vintage 8 bore [Re: Marrakai]
      #94734 - 20/01/08 12:46 AM

Quote:

So...., what? No elephants were shot by Europeans in 1925?

C'mon guys!




To the contrary, lots of elephant available, just seems like an interesting, semi-obsolescent gun at that stage of the game, when many other NE's were available in single and double barrel configurations. Very heavy ammo, etc. Or maybe the quarry wasn't elephant at all? In the absence of the story we really don't know.

My point is I am just wondering why a fellow would have chosen this particular gun in this particular chambering. All guns have "stories" and I bet the story that goes with this one is rather interesting.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: 9.3x57]
      #95751 - 02/02/08 06:02 AM

Hard to believe that some guys are using this site, and don't know much about the history behind bore (gauge) rifles, and some even think that paradox guns are bore (gauge) guns, astounding! Paradox guns are rifled only near muzzle, and are, overall, much lighter in weight than bore rifles. Bore or gauge rifles were rifled full length, and were intended for considerably different use than paradox guns. Bore guns were true rifles; not paradox-like at all. Anyway, such bore rifles, and it doesn't matter if they were made in Britain, in Germany, or in any other country, they were all similar and intended for same purpose: For hunting/killing of big animals in Africa. Yes, they were intended for killing the big animals of Africa, and were the only type of "guns" intended for that purpose, for no other "gun" would provide same level of killing power, prior to the development of the nitro expresses. Eventually, of course, the nitro expresses overshadowed the bore (gauge) rifles, and they became something of an antique.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #95752 - 02/02/08 06:15 AM

You're missing the point - if NE rifles had already been around for over a quarter of a century, who had this one built for them in 1925 and why? Was it just to show off the gun makers art, or for a retro-style hunt, or was the owner just someone who didn't believe in the new-fangled NE powders... who knows?
Inferring insults won't help anyone find out though..... especially as I'm pretty sure everyone in the above thread knows what a paradox is (pun intended)


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #95779 - 02/02/08 02:04 PM

Quote:

Hard to believe that some guys are using this site, and don't know much about the history



DRJ:
10 and 8-bore Paradox guns were intended only for big game such as elephant and rhino, maybe buffalo. How is this a different purpose from a bore-gun?

Go take a look at the H&H catalogue on this site, check the Paradox pages, particularly p32, titled "10-Bore Nitro 'Paradox' Guns: For elephant, rhinoceros, bison, and other kinds of large game".

http://www.huntershouse.dk/files/HHolland/holland-holland-katalog.pdf

Of the 10-bore Paradox
Quote:

It is quite as powerful a weapon as most 8-bore rifles...




--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 17865
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: Marrakai]
      #95998 - 05/02/08 04:15 AM

We ALL know that the bore rifles were originally made for the dangerous game of Africa. What we are asking, is why, in 1925, was an 8 bore single shot rifle made? Did someone want to step back in time and shoot an elephant or rhino or buffalo with what then was an obsolete single shot rifle of a bygone era or was this gun made as I suggested - a work of art and something to have and to shoot at leisure.
; Asking questions in type, is sometimes very difficult as apparently the understanding part is sometimes hazy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: Daryl_S]
      #96008 - 05/02/08 05:43 AM

Maybe somewhere there was a primitive weapons only season for elephant in 1925

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2687
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #96032 - 05/02/08 10:33 PM

So in a few years time, when SAUMs and WSSMs etc have been around for 15 years or so, nobody is ever going to order a .30-06 again? ...and the Blah-zer will have relegated the 98 Mauser to the scrap-heap? Hmmm, perhaps not.

1925 was only 15 to 20 years after the mainstream acceptance of most of the big NE cartridges, and half that period was 'wasted' on the Great War. More than 80 years have passed since then. Those who were raised on the ULH Express would have still been alive and well, ordering new guns, and hunting, in 1925. I think it is probably a little difficult to put that time-frame into proper perspective today.

Anyone know when Hollands made their last 8-bore Paradox? Bet it was this side of 1925.

And BTW, that 8-bore is very nice indeed but it is hardly an exhibition gun. Looks like a good-quality European working rifle to me, although it certainly hasn't done much work!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: Marrakai]
      #96033 - 05/02/08 11:49 PM

IMHO I'm not sure that the difference between a 30-06 and a short magnum is really comparable to that between an 8-bore paradox and a NE rifle. Neither is choosing one style of bolt action over another.

It is a perfectly valid point that the original owner buying this paradox may have done so out of familiarity or preference for a time-proven technology, but that is not disimilar to the hunter who chooses a bow or muzzloader over a rifle out of choice rather than necessity.

Yes it is difficult to put the time-frame into proper perspective today, except for the fact that most of Europe had seen alot of conflict and the rapid development of military bolt action rifles even prior to WW1. In 1925, after WW1, I am pretty sure that most able bodied men in Europe would have been familiar with the idea that rifle technology had already moved on.

All in all though, none of this alters the fact that the rifle was still most probably intended for hunting.......


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degoins
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Loc: SC, USA
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #96037 - 06/02/08 01:29 AM

Maybe it was a fellow of modest means who had an opportunity to hunt Africa or India and this rifle was an affordable and practical choice.

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: Marrakai]
      #96043 - 06/02/08 02:50 AM

Marrakai,
The last Holland 10 paradox ( .805 vs .835 for an 8 ) was made in 1929 and was one of the last 2 or 3 paradox guns made untill recently. Eventhough the 10 had a nitro load in '29 the ballistics were the same as the 1890's 8 dram black powder load. It would be interesting to know who the gun was made for and where it went off to. I recall reading about one Hollad 8 single that was made for a family that had coffee and sugar holdings and they wanted the gun for protection against DG when checking the crops and used it for that well past the 30's.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 17865
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: Marrakai]
      #96046 - 06/02/08 03:30 AM

Quote:

So in a few years time, when SAUMs and WSSMs etc have been around for 15 years or so, nobody is ever going to order a .30-06 again? ...and the Blah-zer will have relegated the 98 Mauser to the scrap-heap? Hmmm, perhaps not.

1925 was only 15 to 20 years after the mainstream acceptance of most of the big NE cartridges, and half that period was 'wasted' on the Great War. More than 80 years have passed since then. Those who were raised on the ULH Express would have still been alive and well, ordering new guns, and hunting, in 1925. I think it is probably a little difficult to put that time-frame into proper perspective today.

Anyone know when Hollands made their last 8-bore Paradox? Bet it was this side of 1925.

And BTW, that 8-bore is very nice indeed but it is hardly an exhibition gun. Looks like a good-quality European working rifle to me, although it certainly hasn't done much work! [/quote







: Could be - but that comparrison wouldn't be valid.
; The comparrison could be made in changing from the current line of modern smokeless rifles to lazers or some other method of 'firing' a 'gun', were that to happen & become popular for 30 years, including a world war that displayed the the use and superiority of the 'new' weapon's fire-power.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Loc: Switzerland
Re: nice vintage 8 bore; INTENDED USE [Re: Daryl_S]
      #96244 - 08/02/08 04:50 AM

The company is still in business:
http://www.jagdwaffen-just.at/
Maybe they even have the old records?

This gun might have been built as a showpiece, but I do not think so. Why put valuable effort into something that has no real market any more?
One might also think about a "master piece", required by the European guild system to become a master gunsmith. Same question, a yourneyman would rather put his money into something that can be sold if needed. Also the piece should bear his name then, and not the company name.

I think the gun was made to order for a rather wealthy and conservative customer. Bear in mind that before WWI black powder express cartridges were still widely used and perfected. Many hunters did not trust small caliber jacketed bullets and smokeless powders, especially in break-action rifles.
Intended use - who knows? Maybe Africa, maybe bear hunting in the Carpathian mountains?

Fuhrmann


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