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Yogi000
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Loc: New York, USA
Jungle Gun
      #91375 - 13/12/07 04:25 AM

We all hear the term---Jungle Gun. Yet I feel it might conjure up different images for different people. Naturally.

When I hear it I think of a double that packs power for what typically resides in the jungle (including the kind that would love to give you a face lift) yet light in weight enough and short enough because you'll be carrying while walking in the Jungle and in close cover you need to point it at potentially charging objects at point blank range.

I think the 375 H&H double with 21-22ish inch barrels is an excellent candidate as a terrific Jungle Gun. Although I would imagine--and I could be purswaded by---some who would poopoo this 375 as too light and say the 470 is the ideal and truly the KING of the Jungle Gun.

Note: I have a preference for very short and lighter in weight double guns in close cover. (just touching 9 or even better under 9 pounds in weight, that is)

Edited by Yogi000 (13/12/07 04:51 AM)


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Dave_Hall
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Yogi000]
      #91382 - 13/12/07 05:48 AM

What are you hunting? A double that light would be sweet in 450NE or 500NE.I have never shot the 470 so I wouldnt know about that.Dave

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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Dave_Hall]
      #91383 - 13/12/07 06:06 AM

Good question. Obviously not all Jungle hunts involve the same animals although trapsing through The Jungle one must be ready for cats (any size and make) to snakes, to crocs, to buffalo, to the other biggies (obviously local inhabitants depends on what Jungle you are in).

My ideal need for a Jungle Gun would be for big cats, but I would want to be able to stop a charge of something with tougher skin and a harder to reach brain.

I like the 450NE option, too.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Yogi000]
      #91389 - 13/12/07 09:05 AM

I always thought the term "Jungle Gun" meant a double smoothbore of 16 to 12 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NE450No2
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #91398 - 13/12/07 10:53 AM

Jungle Gun was a term used by one company ot designate a shotgun that had some sort of means to spin a solid projectile accurate ot over 100 yards ans shoot shot charges as well.

I cannot remember off the top of my head what company it was but H&H used Paradox, others used Cosmos, Collindon [sp] etc.

Westley Richards probably developed this principle further than the others wioth their very good sheels for their version. I know the 28 ga was called the Faunetta and their catalogue shows it killing game as large as moose.

There are a lot of jungles the world over, so I would want to know which jungle I would be in, before picking a suitable gun to carry.

A double rifle drilling would also be a good pick for most places I think.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: NE450No2]
      #91399 - 13/12/07 11:06 AM

The Paradox/Explora/Fauneta etc concept was superbly effective in India's thick jungles and these guns were used to take all of India's game during the Raj years. Even sellers of bread and butter guns like Harrington and Richardson made cheap break open hammer single shots in 12 bore for many years after India became independent for the Indian market with partially rifled barrels, though these were typically 28 or 30", not short barrels.

These days these guns are used to take some of the game that is still permitted in some states in India - wild boar and nilgai on crop protection permits. The hunting of predators is no longer allowed because of their severely depleted numbers.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #91423 - 13/12/07 12:18 PM

I think of a short carbine length bolt rifle as a "jungle gun", a carry over from the SMLE "jungle carbine".

In a double rifle I think of a .450 or larger to hit the gaur, buffalo, tiger or elephant hard with a quick hasty shot in thick cover.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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Paul
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: NitroX]
      #91459 - 13/12/07 07:39 PM

Corbett would probably bet on the .500 BP express or N for B, when tigers were on the list. The fat, heavy bullet had some ability to slow or divert a charge, it seems, as well as kill the beast.

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Sarg
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Paul]
      #91460 - 13/12/07 08:12 PM

NE450No2 , Army & Navy called there 12 bore rifled choke the "JUNGLE GUN" I was looking at one a couple of months ago at the gun smiths !

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Daryl_S
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Sarg]
      #91481 - 14/12/07 03:03 AM

Sarg has it - Army Navy.
; And yes, the #5 Enfield was called a "Jungle Carbine", but many years after the "Gungle Gun's were built.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #91485 - 14/12/07 04:38 AM

If I were going to hunt in the CAR or similar 'jungles' then I think that I would go with a synthetic or laminated stock, controlled round feed stainless action, 20in barrel, black teflon or powdercoat type finish. It would probably be in .458 Winchester, as the cartridge is widely available in that part of the world and uses a standard length action, but maybe a reduced velocity Lott with a heavier bullet (as it can also fire the Win round).

If I wasn't afraid of rust or split walnut stocks, I'd probably use a double otherwise


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degoins
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #91488 - 14/12/07 05:04 AM

Hmm.......I wonder if anybody could make good "paradox" barrels for muzzel loaders?

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smicha6551
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: degoins]
      #91495 - 14/12/07 06:49 AM

Well, there is a synthetic stock available for the Blaser D99 drilling, which can come in 9.3x9.3 over a 20 bore barrel.

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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: degoins]
      #91496 - 14/12/07 06:58 AM

smoothbore, eh? Daryl I like that definition... (yeah, I'm prejudiced)

Albeit, the various definitions posted make sense and, as others have noted, several were labeled as Jungle Guns.

I think when all is said and done, my interpretation of a Jungle Gun would be a short barreled double, either a rifle or a smooth bore, and I suppose when and if paradoxes come back to life I would add that in.

I guess when i asked the question I was not thinking of back when pardoxes were used. I was thinking "more current" definitions of a Jungle Gun.

For sure when I get my jungle hunt it will include a double side by side 12 smooth bore, although that wasn't what I would call a Jungle Gun until Daryl pointed it out that a 16 to 12 smooth bore was at one time generally referred to as a Jungle Gun. But I would have a 375 or a 450 or 470 or 500 double rifle for sure in ANY Jungle hunt.

Edited by Yogi000 (14/12/07 06:59 AM)


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NE450No2
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Yogi000]
      #91506 - 14/12/07 08:37 AM

Gentlemen
I once handled a British double rifle in 450/400 with 21 inch barrels.

That would make a great "Jungle Double" IMHO.

However there is a Germen fella that does some hunting in the African jungle that used reduced loads in his bulpup, 460 Wby no less, for smaller game.

Still after using Drillings for several years I think the ideal "modern" jungle gun would be a drilling.

In South American jungles I think 2 shotgun bbls and one rifle bbl [conventional drilling] would be best as there are not a lot of BIG dangerous animals.

However in Africa, where buff and elephants are present I would want a double rifle drilling [2 rifle bbls and one shotgun bbl], in a calibre I felt comfortable with.

Several companies make 9,3x74R double rifle drillings, but Krieghoff makes an "African Double Rifle Drilling" in calibres such as 375 Flanged, 500/416, and 470, along with a 20 ga bbl.

I do know next time I go back to Africa my Blaser D99 Duo in 9,3x74Rx9,3x74Rx20 ga 3" [scoped] will definately make the trip.


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LGF
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: NE450No2]
      #91534 - 14/12/07 01:42 PM

For what it is worth, there are only two places in the world today where an unprovoked attack by a big cat is more than vanishingly unlikely. One is by tigers in the Sundarban swamps on the border of India and Bangladesh (and then only on the Indian side), the other is by lions in SE Tanzania/NE Mozambique. And even there, the lion attacks only occur at night. Of course, all bets are off when they are provoked, by a bullet for instance.

Edited by LGF (14/12/07 01:48 PM)


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NE450No2
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: LGF]
      #91537 - 14/12/07 03:07 PM

LGF

While I would not consider a Cougar a BIG cat, there are a few joggers in sunny California that might want to disagree with your statement.


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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: NE450No2]
      #91614 - 15/12/07 07:27 AM

Indeed. Good point. In fact a few nights ago when I walked out of my house in good ole upstate NY and heard in front of me the very distinctive growl snarl of a very big cat, and albeit while I was not attacked, the sentiments were expressed.

Had I been perhaps a bit smaller in structure or NOT waking out of my well lit home, for example if I was just strolling on a path near my home, an attack could hardly be ruled out... believe me that loud, deep snarl growl made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up to attention!

And others nearby have had their BIG farm animals attacked and/or killed by something with very BIG claws.

So I guess along side those other two JUNGLES you might want to add upstate NY and jogging/mountain bike trails in CA.


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LGF
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: NE450No2]
      #91615 - 15/12/07 07:30 AM

Please note: I did not say impossible, I said vanishingly unlikely. Given the number of miles/hours that are hiked/jogged/hunted annually in cougar country, I think that is a fair estimate of probabilites.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: degoins]
      #91643 - 15/12/07 01:53 PM

Quote:

Hmm.......I wonder if anybody could make good "paradox" barrels for muzzel loaders?




Degoins,

The best person to contact would be Ernie Stalman of Badger Barrels, the very person who advised Holland and Holland when they decided to reintroduce the Paradox a few years ago. Though he does not offer them on his website, he could easily make them for you.

Call him up - there are few nicer people to talk to.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Daryl_S
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #91663 - 15/12/07 05:50 PM

I suspect anyone with a rifling machine could rifle a full or extra full choke. That would give .020" depth per side on a full choked gun. It would not be difficult and the rate of twist would be in the 60" to 70" range, just fine for round balls. Given consistant bores, a cutter head would not be difficult to make and one cold use an old muzzlelaoding rifle barrel section for a guide. Pretty easy for a handy guy with a minimal shop.
: There are a at least couple guys over at americanmongrifles.com who have rifling machines. One's machine is for sale.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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jaz
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #91720 - 16/12/07 10:56 AM

I have a "Jungle Gun", made by Army Navy, Webley "Screw Grip" action 28" barrels, about 7 3/4 lbs. Probably the oddest rifling I've ever seen. Wide lands and grooves STRAIGHT about 21" and then a very slight twist to the right the last four inches. 19 grains of Unique and a Paradox style bullet, 2" at 50 yards, I can't see to 100...
The tern "Jungle Gun" was often used to describe "Ball Guns", large bore shotguns with no rifling. Only Army Navy signs their guns Jungle Gun.. I also possess a Cosmos and Paradox, which are all in the category of "Ball and Shot guns" which all have some type of rifling, be it, Ratchet, Invisible, Oval or the screwy one on my Army Navy.
JZ


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LGF
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: jaz]
      #91740 - 16/12/07 02:31 PM

I have a 12 bore Jeffery with 32" barrels, folding leaf sights (50 and 100 yds) and a smooth bore, choked 1/4, 1/4. Said to have been made for use in India. Is that a ball and shot gun, albeit no rifling?

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jaz
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: LGF]
      #91745 - 16/12/07 05:05 PM

I would have to ask, how much does it weigh and is it hammerless. Bore rifles can be further broken down to include smooth bore guns. Generally these guns have hammers, shoot between 4 to 7 drams of black and weigh between 9 and 13 lbs.and intended for ball or conical only. Ball and shot guns are more like modern day shotguns capable of shooting both shot and slug, weighing 7.5 to 8.5 lbs, usually hammerless,not always.
JZ


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Daryl_S
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: LGF]
      #91758 - 17/12/07 03:10 AM

The sights pretty much says it all. It doesn't matter what the weight is as if it's got sights and no rifling, it was meant to shoot round ball as well as shot. The underside of the tubes should shot the loads recommended.
: Measure the muzzles and do not use a ball larger than those.
; I have a friend who has an English 6 bore muzzleloading double, meant for ball or shot. H&H refurbished it back in the early 80's. Now, it looks new as it was in excellent shape when sent. Holland's re-bored, lapped and polished the tubes to 5 bore. Wil used to shoot trap with it - all 16 pounds of it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by Daryl_S (17/12/07 03:16 AM)


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