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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3612
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles
      #908 - 14/01/03 07:56 PM

Several years ago, I acquired a nice Alexander Henry under-lever hammer double chambered for the 20/.577 Express cartridge. I restored it, and take it hunting buffalo occasionally with good success. I believe this to be a fairly rare chambering these days, and know of only one other which was sold from Australia into the US last year. It too was an Alex Henry.

Holland & Holland have illustrated this cartridge in their early catalogues, probably before the turn of the century, but I have no details of rifles so-chambered. I believe it was a popular tiger cartridge in the black powder era.

Which leads me to the question: do any fellow-posters currently have possession of a rifle or rifles in this chambering? Does anyone know of a rifle chambered for the 20/.577? If so, would you be so kind as to post a few details for the enlightenment of us all! Surely there are more than two of these marvellous rifles left!

http://www.australianhunting.net/library/oneoftheharderones.html



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39990
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #916 - 14/01/03 09:20 PM

Marrakai

Welcome to NitroExpress.com

Nice old double! Its a shame though that so many of "our" doubles and older firearms have gone across the Pacific. Hang onto this one for us mate.

That does sound like a very unusal cartridge. A 20 bore necked down to .577. Sorry never have heard of it before.

Whitehorse Road? Did you buy it from the old Centruy Arms?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3612
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #1048 - 17/01/03 10:13 PM

The Alex Henry was on consignment at Century Arms, I don't know the previous owner. Luckily, Saunders was in the States at the time, and I got a good deal from Bob!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #1418 - 02/02/03 09:44 AM

That is a beautiful gun, for sure!

Marrakai, Is this a 20 ga on one barrel, and a 577 on the other,(A CAPE GUN) or a 20 ga necked down to .577, on both barrels?(DOUBLE RIFLE)

If it is a 20ga X .577 3" express, cape ,I have one that almost looks like a twin! Only mine is a 20 ga 2 1/2" on the left barrel, and a 58 Berdan Carbine on the right barrel. It is a jones underlever, as well, and also a back action hammer gun. The 58 Berdan musket, and 58 Berdan carbine, is an obsolete pair of black powder cartridges, the carbine being a short version of the musket! They both shot a 530 gr lead bullet at about 1100 fps for the musket, and 930 fps for the carbine version. The bullet diameter is .585. I make cases out of 577NE, and bullets are molded in a Lyman #585213 mold. It shoots well, and the shotgun side is a fine dove gun, and the rifle is hell on Moose! These to cartridges are found occasionaly, in collector shows, but rifles chambered for this cartridge, espcially the carbine version are as scarce as chicken's teeth!

This cape gun is in mint condition, and is damascus barrels, and was made for the INDIA trade, and the settlers on the Cape of Goodhope, South Africa!

If I can get someone to take some pictures with a digital camera, I'll post some pictures of it, and the cartridges it is chambered for.

I collect double rifles, cape guns, and all manner of combination guns, and have several cape guns in verious chambering combinations.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3612
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #1428 - 03/02/03 09:34 PM

Mac:
My Alex Henry is a double rifle, not a cape gun. The cartridge is the 20-bore 2 3/4 inch brass case for Rifle or Bore-Gun necked down to .585 (20-bore shotgun cases in those early days were only 2 1/2 inches I believe).

Your cape-gun sounds like a ripper, is it an Alex Henry as well? That's certainly a rare chambering, I've never seen one in the flesh. Lucky to get any firearm of that age in mint condition: well done!

Looking forward to seeing the photos!

Cheers

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #1478 - 06/02/03 05:51 AM

Marakai, Thanks for the clarification on your beautiful rifle! This may be a 577 SNIDER that was rechambered to 20ga-577 2 1/2" because the 20 bore cases were easier to get in India, or simply a special order by some one from the maker. But the Maharajas of india, had many doubles made on 12, and 20 bore brass necked down. The 577 REWA is an example of this special order from the Maraja of REWA!

No mine is not British, but German! It is a V. Haffner made in Cassel (old spelling, the new spelling is with a "K"), Germany sometime around 1890. It has beautiful Cercasion Walnut wood, checkered at 28 lines per inch, the butt stock is straight, but has a buffalo horn pistol grip, and butt plate. Like your A-H it has a jones under lever, and minimal engraveing, and is case colored.

I would love to own the rifle you have there, as I collect double rifles, or in fact, any firearm with more than one barrel! Both your's and mine are rare chamberings. The 58 Berdan musket, and arms so chambered are around, but even the cartridges for the 58 Berdan carbine version are rare, and arms so chambered are VERY rare in any condition. I would say the 20/577 1/2" is even more rare, since in all my 66 yrs I've never seen one of the cartridges, or a rifle for the cartridge. You have a treasure, my friend, treat it well!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (06/02/03 05:57 AM)

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #15822 - 15/06/04 04:30 AM

I know this is an old topic but see it first time now. Marakai can you make a drawing from the 20/577 henry. some years ago i have asked NDFS for making a die set, have thinking the brits may know it but they cant help.I like only to have a die to make collector cartridges, dont have a gun. Griffin and Howe in the USA have a 20/577 double on their website, believe for 12000$$$. Are you interested in 20gauge 2,75" brass, this was made in russia and is probaly allways making. this brass use the 6,45mm berdan primer and its stronger than magtech shotgun brass. I looking for this some time, get only collectors pieces till now,and it may have a much better price than your 600/577 brass. pay for collector stuff 2-3 euro.tell me if you have an interest.

duggaboy, your capegun is not making for the 58 berdan carbine! this cartridge was never available in germany. there exist a rifle cartridge family making with shotgun cases from 36 bore up to 12 bore.you find chambers for 33mm, 40mm, 50 mm and 65mm long cases. this is not a british paradox or full rifled cartridge. the most common is the 40mm long brass case in 28, 24 and 20 ga.
this cartridge is allways a handload, havent found till now a factory load. it shots a special lead bullet: the so named cats head bullet and we have pics in an old RWS bullet catalog.Seems to be that your gun is chambered for the 24/33LK cartridge.
I search for this cartridges and gun for many times but infos are very rare, have and shot a 20/65 - 28/40LK( LK means lancester Kugel in english lancester bullet) grove dia. is .600".I make my brass from 28 ga. Magtech brass and you can make yours from 24 ga. Magtech this is cheaper than 577 NE. nice to hear chamber dia. also barrel dia. from your gun

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: pwm]
      #15837 - 15/06/04 06:31 PM

My mate here in W.A.has a martini rifle that is stamped
20 bore,the barrel is fully rifled and slugs out at 610 thou.
20 gauge cases will only fit if the brass part of the case is sized down.
The breech is stamped 1878...
Does anybody know what it might be??
Can anybody point me in the right direction to purchase some brass cases.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (16/06/04 11:32 AM)

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: 20 Bore/ .577 Double Rifles [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #15846 - 16/06/04 02:57 AM

think this is chambered for the 20ga. 2 1/2 paradox!
make a bore slug and a chamber cast and I can indentify this round.

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