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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81033 - 20/06/07 09:05 PM

Not necessarily a "new" double cartridge would be needed, but something more available to the tune of a .318 WR. .333 Jeffrey or a new .338 NE would be more than useful.

Shooting bullets with a weight of around 225 to 250 grains. With a muzzle velocity of around 2150 to 2400 fps.

Would make a fine medium game light weight double rifle, useful on driven game and if loaded with a 250 gr to 300 gr RNSP's/FMJ's probably capable of taking dangerous game.

Of course they will do nothing a 9.3x74R won't do with a 286 gr bullet, but that is not the question.

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fuhrmann
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81067 - 21/06/07 05:56 AM

Quote:

For those who would hunt elk/moose/grizzly a 338 caliber would be great.The 333 Jeffery Flanged in 338 would be fun or maybe even the 375 H&H Flanged necked down to 338 caliber!!

Does anyone else want to wildcat a Double cartridge for a specific hunying purpose??

What wildcat would you create??



There would be plenty of cartridges to choose from, no need for a new wildcat.

Modern: .30R Baser (already named), 8.5x63R
Classic German cartridges: 8x60RS, 8x65RS, 8x75RS
US wildcat: .338x74R (said to be invented by Keith)

Fuhrmann

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hoppdoc
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: NitroX]
      #81080 - 21/06/07 11:50 AM

Gee Whiz guys,

Think of the possibilities!!

Is a Double the best platform for shooting game at 250+ yards??

Absolutely not,but it would be different and STILL work up close.Drive your buddies with the bolts bonkers!!

Can it be done and regulated with a medium caliber round at faster velocities than are shot currently for a flatter trajectory and increased hit probability? I think so. The difference of a 286 gr 9.3x74R at 2200 vs a 180 gr at 2500 is 7 inches drop at 300. At 2600 fps it would be over 8 inches!! This could be the difference between a hit and a miss on western game.At close range your Double would probably have a faster 2nd shot.

You could do wildcats in 30 cal and 338 cal for wide bullet selection.If not revive an older cartridge at faster velocities.

Scopes for this setup could be dead on at 100yds with the TDS "bars" or similar Leupold scope for holdover at distance.That would not screw up your closer range shooting from 150 yds in.This scope system could even be used on slower velocity Double cartridges already out there.

I think the concept is possible.Maybe one day I'll get to try it for real on some of those young hunters who swear by their magnum cartridges!! It would be great fun!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (21/06/07 12:08 PM)

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Rustyzipper
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81641 - 02/07/07 10:05 AM

Have you guys thought of a 33 Winchester? The pointed bullets could be used and some better trajectory found with heavier loads. Rusty

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escard
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to hopp..... [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81767 - 03/07/07 09:47 PM

...there already is an existing rimmed version for your needs - .30 R Blaser; no more need for a wildcat......

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9.3x57
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Rustyzipper]
      #81768 - 03/07/07 10:23 PM

Quote:

Have you guys thought of a 33 Winchester? The pointed bullets could be used and some better trajectory found with heavier loads. Rusty



Brilliant idea. Really, can't think of a better round for a light-medium double.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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unspellable
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81781 - 04/07/07 04:14 AM

Why are we always proposing new cartridges? Why not revive some of the old ones that would fill the bill nicely? For example, the 300 H&H Flanged Magnum was designed for doubles and will do anything the 30-06 will do plus a bit more. There was a 275 H&H Flanged Magnum (Both of these are necked down 375 mags) that was intended for long range shooting. I'm always hearing the doubles are no good for long range work, but there were a h**l of a lot of long range cartridges developed for a rifle that wouldn't work at long ranges.

The 30 Purdey is a near duplicate of the 30-40. The 300 H&H will do anything a 30-06 will do. There were several DR cartridges in the 275 caliber range.

Pressure is a non-issue. Back thrust and recoil are what count as far as stress on the action is concerned. The reason smokeless DR cartridges ran rather low pressure to begin with was due to extraction problems with the thin brass that was a legacy from the BP loads. How ever there was never any need for high pressures any way. Bolt action rifles run high pressure out of necessity since the action constrains the cartridge length. Where the bolt action is stronger is in extraction power.

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escard
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: unspellable]
      #81837 - 04/07/07 04:43 PM

...because the .30 R Blaser is a rimmed one it should be the better option for a double....(its about 10-15 % above the 30-06 Level and has a very good reputation when loaded with the right bullets - of course, not the 165 RWS-KS....instead you should try the 200 Norma Oryx and Vulcan, they both do pretty well in that cartridge...)

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unspellable
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: escard]
      #82125 - 10/07/07 02:25 AM

How about the 9.3x74R necked down to .30 caliber? That would shove a 180 or 220 grain bullet to good velocity with out much pressure. One should keep in mind that really high velocity wears out barrels faster and DR barrels are not cheap to replace. I would settle for bringing back the 300 H&H Flanged Magnum. If it's just the ballistics, I've seen Drs in 30-06 and 270 Winchester.

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enfieldspares
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: unspellable]
      #83185 - 28/07/07 07:36 AM

270 or 7mm Magnum? Been there already....275 H & H or 280 Ross. Never heard of the 7x65R? Also the Jeffrey equivalents. It will be interesting to see now that Paul Roberts has "resurrected" Jeffry if he also resurrects the small and medium bore cartridges based on the .404 case.

I would agree. We don't need more cartridges! Indeed there would be a positive benefit to bringing back some of the "classic" British, and German, rounds. To say nothing of the fine Newton series!

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Bramble
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: enfieldspares]
      #83186 - 28/07/07 08:12 AM

Could be fun to build a 350#2 or 360#2

That would be a blast from the past.

Regards

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bonanza
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #83201 - 28/07/07 11:05 PM

I have a Holland & Holland DR that is chambered in .35 Winchester.

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: NitroX]
      #83203 - 29/07/07 01:12 AM

Quote:

Not necessarily a "new" double cartridge would be needed, but something more available to the tune of a .318 WR. .333 Jeffrey or a new .338 NE would be more than useful.

Shooting bullets with a weight of around 225 to 250 grains. With a muzzle velocity of around 2150 to 2400 fps.

Would make a fine medium game light weight double rifle, useful on driven game and if loaded with a 250 gr to 300 gr RNSP's/FMJ's probably capable of taking dangerous game.

Of course they will do nothing a 9.3x74R won't do with a 286 gr bullet, but that is not the question.



I'm taking a wild guess here........but I think this could be achieved by necking the 405 case to 338. Ought to make a honey of a double rifle.

SOS

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hoppdoc
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #83238 - 29/07/07 06:58 PM

Wish Merkel or Chapuis would make a 300 flanged mag or some LARGER powder capacity 30 cal Double round than the 30 Blaser.

The 333 purdey with 338 bullets or some closer equivilent to the 338WM would be great due to the bullet variety available.

Doubt this will ever happen due to the usual perception of Doubles being short range rifles.I doubt anyone will want to develop such a market for new manufactured rifles--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (29/07/07 06:59 PM)

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maddenwh
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83260 - 30/07/07 09:35 AM

I believe these pressure discussions are just nonsequitters from the original discussion. I don't think an american double needs to be invented because I think the 9.3X74R is a fantastic round for big game in the lower 48 and otherwise. My Chapuis double has ejectors, shoots fairly tight groupings at one hundred yards, and has relatively little recoil (i don't even have a pad on mine). I generally shoot 286 grain bullets at around 2450 fps. There is versatility in bullet size, and if one reloads, the cost aint that bad. I wouldn't be afraid to load it with 300 grain bullets and go after grizzly, and I wouldn't have any concers regarding meat damage if shooting deer or antelope. However, the trouble with adjusting the loads on a double is that you have to relearn your sights and shot groupings with new loads.

If one had to invent a new double load, I think the best option would be a 35 cal with ballistics in between the 358 winchester and the 350 remington magnum. A good 200 grain bullet moving at 2600 fps would be a perfect double rifle american load. It takes anyting in the lower forty eight, doesn't have much recoil, and puts a nice big hole in the target. This wouldn't be a long range cal, but who shoots a double past 2 hunsky anyways?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: maddenwh]
      #83338 - 01/08/07 01:09 AM

Quote:

If one had to invent a new double load, I think the best option would be a 35 cal with ballistics in between the 358 winchester and the 350 remington magnum. A good 200 grain bullet moving at 2600 fps would be a perfect double rifle american load. It takes anyting in the lower forty eight, doesn't have much recoil, and puts a nice big hole in the target. This wouldn't be a long range cal, but who shoots a double past 2 hunsky anyways?



You wouldn't be "inventing" anything. The cartridge described above (it's actually a bit better) has been around for 100 years. The .350 No. 2 is a flanged cartridge firing a 225 grain .35 caliber bullet at 2550 fps. Intended for doubles, Rigby and Gibbs chambered rifles for it for many years. The No. 2 case is identical to that of the .400/.350 2 3/4" Nitro Express, it just uses a different load. Cases are easily formed from 9.3X74R. In British double rifles, the .350 No. 2 seems to have been more common than the .400/.350 was. It was quite successful. Factory ammunition is currently loaded by Kynoch.

Another good example of why we don't need any new DR cartridges.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by 400NitroExpress (01/08/07 04:09 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #83354 - 01/08/07 07:10 AM

I apologize for showing my ignorance--

Could one fire a 350 No.2 in a 400/350 Double? Are both 35 cal?
Are their pressure limits different? What are the specific differences if any?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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bonanza
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83357 - 01/08/07 07:21 AM

Hop-doc,

Go to this link:

http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/cartridge%20range.htm

and get an education on the great old cartridges, I did.

I think that we have established that we DO NOT need a new cartridge.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83358 - 01/08/07 07:32 AM

Quote:

I apologize for showing my ignorance--

Could one fire a 350 No.2 in a 400/350 Double? Are both 35 cal?



Yes, it would chamber and fire. Of course, it almost certainly wouldn't regulate worth a damn. The cases are identical. However, a .400/.350 cartridge probably would not chamber in an original .350 No. 2 rifle because the throat would likely be too short for the long 310 grain RN bullet. They use the same bullet diameter.

Quote:

Are their pressure limits different? What are the specific differences if any?



Yes.

.400/.350 2 3/4" Nitro Express: 43 Cordite/310 grain bullet = 16 tons BaseCUP for 2000 fps from 28" barrels.

.350 No. 2 Nitro Express: 51.5 grains Cordite (but usually loaded with NC)/225 grain bullet = 17.5 tons BaseCUP for 2550 fps from 28" barrels.

Current CIP MAP is 40,610 PSI for the .400/.350 and 47,862 PSI for the .350 No. 2.

The oddity with .350 No. 2 rifles is that, for some strange reason, almost all were marked as having been proved for the .400/.350 load (Cordite 43 - 310 MAX) instead of the No. 2 load.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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hoppdoc
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #83383 - 01/08/07 04:32 PM

Fascinating!

Would such Doubles measure out to a .358 caliber bore or something else?

The 350 No.2 looks like serious fun at 2550 fps.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (01/08/07 04:40 PM)

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maddenwh
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83387 - 01/08/07 08:01 PM

400nitroexpress- I am well aware that my hypothetical cartridge and the 350 No.2 are ballistically similar and that, if, hypothetically, someone did invent a new double caliber they would not be coming up with anything that had original ballistics. But, just b/c the ballistics were the same, it doesn't mean that a hypothetical gun maker couldn't go ahead and "INVENT" a new caliber with the same ballistics. If you are going to get into a war of language with me, I'll be happy to dance. It's what I do for a living. Now, if I've misinterpreted your intentions as hostile, I apologize and completely agree with your statement that no new cartridge is needed. I also commend you on your knowledge of double cals. I think that between my 9.3X74r chapuis double and my 416 rigby merkel double, there is nothing on this continent or any other that could not be handled effectively or even over zealously. Basically, one big bore, and one medium bore are all one needs to hunt the world. You might even be able to argue that with reloading and with something like a 416, 450/400, or 500/416, one could hunt anyhting with one rifle. Doubles do however, limit distances at which game should responsably be shot from.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #88991 - 15/11/07 04:52 AM

Quote:

There seem to be innumerable Double cartridges and one wonders are there any gaps to be filled??
For short range open sight Double scenarios (150 yds or less)it would seem no gaps exist---



I think there could be a gap in the .400 to .450 calibre class. The .450/.400 is rightly popular and even undergoing a bit of a revival, although some might consider it a bit on the slow side. There is the .500/.416, which is a bit faster but needs a larger framed DR.

Personally, I would love to see a straight walled express cartridge firing a .423 (.404 Jefferey) calibre 450 grain bullet at a genuine 2150 to 2250 fps.

Any thoughts? Would be lovely in a Webley boxlock or Westley droplock....

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Chasseur
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #88997 - 15/11/07 05:57 AM

Quote:

If one where to develop an American all round Double I would think a 30 cal wildcat based on the 7x65R shooting 180 gr bullets(a rimmed 30.06 equivilent)would have appeal.It could feature true ejectors, a qd scope and other features(read expensive!!) high end hunters would desire/appreciate.




I'd second some of the other posters, we already have this cartridge in a modern form: 30R Blaser.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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400NitroExpress
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: maddenwh]
      #89020 - 15/11/07 12:13 PM

I haven't pulled up this old string since it petered out in August, and just read your post.

Quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:

If you are going to get into a war of language with me, I'll be happy to dance. It's what I do for a living. Now, if I've misinterpreted your intentions as hostile,



If you somehow found something hostile in my previous post, then I'm sorry that a "war of language" is what you do for a living, as your reading comprehension is below par.

When you start from scratch with a completely new DR cartridge in today's world, you start with zero rifles in the pool, and it's commercial viability must then be supported exclusively by the new rifles being built for it. If a new double rifle cartridge is a big hit and sells really well, we're talking about a couple dozen new guns per year, not a couple thousand. Even if it was a couple thousand, without the direct support of the gunmaker (the willingness to supply factory ammo and components themselves), the cartridge would be a commerical failure - there just isn't enough volume to support the manufacturing costs. If the gunmakers choose instead to use an existing cartridge, even one that hasn't been chambered in new rifles for many years, at least there is an existing pool of rifles already in circulation creating a demand for the ammunition and components - and that means that the gunmaker's customer is more likely to be able to feed his large investment over a much longer term. That's why duplicating the ballistics of a DR cartridge that's been around for many years with a completely new cartridge is such a bad mistake. Doing so only negates the advantage of volume and greatly reduces the likelihood of commercial viability.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #89027 - 15/11/07 01:28 PM

Quote:



I think there could be a gap in the .400 to .450 calibre class. The .450/.400 is rightly popular and even undergoing a bit of a revival, although some might consider it a bit on the slow side. There is the .500/.416, which is a bit faster but needs a larger framed DR.



I don't think there's ever been much of a perception that there was a gap there. It's been there for 110 years, and the only attempt to split the difference hasn't done particularly well. This is primarily because the .450/.400 worked so well and was so successful - more double rifles have been built in .400 than any other over .40 caliber. It wasn't on the slow side. It set the over .40 flanged nitro velocity standard that the others followed. If something larger were desired, a .450 was the next logical step.

No, the .500/.416 doesn't require a larger frame. It hasn't set the world on fire because, as good as it is, it suffers badly from the perception that it kicks as hard as a .450 or .470 and crowds the pressure of the .375 Flanged Magnum (the price of breaking the velocity pattern). For that reason it's usually skipped over in favor of either the .450/.400 or .470. Nice .400s are as easy to sell as .470s these days.

Quote:

Personally, I would love to see a straight walled express cartridge firing a .423 (.404 Jefferey) calibre 450 grain bullet



Same issues as the .500/.416. A rifle for a straight case .423 with a 450 grain bullet at standard velocity will weigh just as much as a .450/.470 and produce just as much recoil, so why bother?

Quote:

at a genuine 2150 to 2250 fps.



...and that will drive the pressure up well over .375 Flanged Magnum levels with a straight case. Seems like everybody is a velocity hound these days. None of the over .40 flanged nitros ever did that in the field, and all were successful and proved more than adequate.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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