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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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Marrakai
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RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test
      #88854 - 13/11/07 02:24 AM

Finally tossed up the promised article on field-testing the RC4 'Evolution' shotgun slug.

If it prevents just one accident, or wounded animal lost, the author will be well pleased.

RC4 'Evolution' Shotgun Slugs: The Acid Test

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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peter
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Marrakai]
      #88865 - 13/11/07 03:55 AM

that just shows that you cant substitute lead with plastic. lets get someone to bring the fosbury slug back in a all brass case. ..... yes i know just dreaming.


peter

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500Nitro
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: peter]
      #88866 - 13/11/07 04:42 AM


Top article.

I've often wondered about those slugs.

Marrakai
I have some Breneke's left over from the
80's if you want them.


Thanks

Edited by 500Nitro (13/11/07 08:33 AM)

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xausa
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Marrakai]
      #88869 - 13/11/07 08:14 AM

Well done!

This article would never make the pages of "The American Rifleman", which once published nothing but such articles, but now confines itself to praise of items advertised in its pages.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: xausa]
      #88915 - 13/11/07 11:39 PM

Marrakai,thankyou for the heads up.
Very much appreciated.

I experimented with my Lyman mould by cutting a new circlip groove 4 mm closer to the nose of the hollow base plug.
The result is a 600gn projectile instead of a 475gn projectile .
Accuracy tests are acceptable at 1.5 inches at 50 yards.
Still hasnt been tested on big boned game yet but am sure it will perform up to my expectations


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #88925 - 14/11/07 02:51 AM

Looking great, Alan. I never did like the hollow based projectiles - too light for their length and poor penetration on bone. Yours should answer that problem.
: The Article above shows that very well. I, of course, have had excellent penetration and killing power from solid round balls. Unfortuneately, one must load his own ammo as a good RB load is not on the market and to get the barrels to shoot together, one must experiment.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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smicha6551
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: DarylS]
      #89986 - 28/11/07 06:44 PM

Amazing article, thanks. I'm glad Brenneke slugs are easily available in the US. Those slugs should be marked with a varmit on the box, not a boars head.

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Yogi000
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: smicha6551]
      #90710 - 06/12/07 06:34 AM

A squirrel's head, maybe on the box....

Regarding Brenneke's actually, I found them pretty shattered as well in my penetration tests and they did not penetrate as well as I expected, or hoped.

Although up to this point still the best overall performers in my double smoothie.

But put up against the Brenneke Black Magics I am more optimistic about the solid round balls, treated and hardened and with the right hand load. It does have much to do with the Powder and quantity, too.

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500Nitro
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Yogi000]
      #90714 - 06/12/07 06:49 AM



Well it's interesting to know that now the
RC's won't be available anymore in Australia !

Hopefully someone will bring back the Breneke's
or something similar.

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Marrakai
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: 500Nitro]
      #91682 - 16/12/07 02:33 AM

Quote:

Well it's interesting to know that now the
RC's won't be available anymore in Australia


More information please?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Marrakai]
      #94191 - 14/01/08 03:21 AM

Marrakai,

Your article was an eye opener and thanks for the same.

I have similar type of slugs made by Mirage Clever and always thought them to be Brenneke type slugs but having read your article I am not too sure.

How exactly are the Brenneke type slugs different from the RC4s you have written about?

Herewith a few pics of the two types of Mirage Clever slugs for your reference.

Thanks.

RHB

















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Marrakai
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: RHB]
      #94249 - 14/01/08 11:15 PM

RHB:
They look to be of the same design as the RC4, but the alloy must be considerably better (and thicker!) if you can shoot them into a clay-bank and retrieve them in one piece. The fired recoveries look great to me! I would have been happy with the RC4s if they could have achieved that.

Nevertheless, the true test is to whack them into the shoulder of a full-grown wild boar and see what happens! Have you taken the Mirage slugs into the hunting field? We would love to hear your results.

Whatever the outome, you would still be better off than those two guys with hay-forks!



Original Brennekes are true solids with riveted base-wad (no hollow base), although there are a few modern variations around these days which may be slightly different. Here's a pic of two recovered from buffalo, not mine (found on the web), but you get the idea:



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Marrakai]
      #94258 - 15/01/08 01:13 AM

Hi Marrakai and thanks for clearing my doubts about what a true Brenneke slug is supposed to be like.

Your reply would have been very encouraging had I recently not shot one slug into a cardboard box packed with glossy magazines. Penetration was approximately 4 1/2" and the retrived slug wasn't too different from the RC4s.

I will take a pic or two tomorrow morning and put it up here.

For the time being here's another view of the two slugs recovered from the earth bank.



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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: RHB]
      #94303 - 15/01/08 01:24 PM

Herewith three pics of the recovered slug after shooting it into a cardboard box packed with glossy magazines.







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Marrakai
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: RHB]
      #94316 - 15/01/08 02:46 PM

Well OK, they're trashed, but dry paper packing is about the toughest test medium you can use! At least they stayed together. I didn't try this with the RC4s, but suspect they would have disintegrated into a million bits.

Are you able to soak the mags for a couple of days in a tub of water till thoroughly soft, and try again?


BTW, can you still buy those Mirage slugs? If they are no longer available, you may be better off selling them to a cartridge collector and heading off to your local Brenneke outlet with the proceeds!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Marrakai]
      #94324 - 15/01/08 05:16 PM

I will certainly try the soaked magazines test but it may be a few days (possibly even a couple of weeks) before I can head to the range.

Incidentally, the slug was shot into the magazines from a measured 25 yards.

Fat chance of me buying what I want, Marrakai. I live in India... I am sure Mehul has talked about the plight of Indian shooters but just in case he hasn't, it's a case of, "beggars cannot be choosers".

Will post the pics as soon as I get to do the test. In the meantime, if you could shoot a RC4 slug into a bunch of tightly packed dry magazines at 25 yards, that would be useful. Thanks.

P.S.: Both the Clever Mirage slugs are still available in India but only at a few shops. Cost is Rs.140.00 (approx. AUD 4.00) per cartridge.

Edited by RHB (15/01/08 05:25 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: RHB]
      #94331 - 15/01/08 08:14 PM

OK, I'll spank a few dry phone-books with RC4 slugs next weekend, if possible.

Actually, dry paper is harder to find than wet around here at the moment, we are in the middle of the monsoons!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Marrakai]
      #94360 - 16/01/08 06:24 AM

If you want to see performance on those dry magazines, try alloyed lead round balls. WW metal is my preferred as it's so cheap- normally free, casts well and still maintains good weight for diameter. I smashed both shoulders of a big Canadian bull moose with one from my 14 bore rifle -.684" round ball weighing 466gr. Moose was 100 yards from the muzzle. Lyman and Lee both make RB moulds in .690". The Lee mold is a cheap way to test balls - at less than $20.00US normally. Jeff Tanner of the UK will make any size desired, up to and including 8 bore, for around $30.00US.
; You can contact me if desiring more info on this type of loading for a shotgun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: DarylS]
      #94387 - 16/01/08 12:44 PM

Quote:

If you want to see performance on those dry magazines, try alloyed lead round balls.



RHB: Daryl's idea has merit on a lot of points. Not sure if you can wheelweights but maybe linotype metal or plumbing lead, etc.?

A very simple handloading kit might do you well. Can you obtain powder? For example, during the time I spent in Zaire/Congo smokeless powder was unobtainable but blackpowder was available for some reason, and a fair number of folks used it to handload muzzle loaders. Blackpowder might be easier/safer and still very effective to work loads up with if you have a hodgepodge of components, too.

I really wish I had some of these slugs to test in my media. I'd be curious to compare them with some rifle cartridges and other "known winners" and you might have a good idea thereby what would work. Dry magazines are very hard on softslugs and unless you have some other caliber to compare to, you might be unimpressed with the results.

Obviously you could just use these things on game and observe the results, or if you have a good pig rifle or other good Brenneke loads, etc to compare with, shoot them into the same medium and compare with the Mirage slugs. Shot into a dirt bank, our 1 oz Fosters look like a donut, flat with a hole in the center. Comparing with rounds you know work well is the best way to use terminal testing media.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (16/01/08 12:49 PM)

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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: Marrakai]
      #94390 - 16/01/08 01:42 PM

Quote:

OK, I'll spank a few dry phone-books with RC4 slugs next weekend, if possible.



Thanks, M. Appreciate that.

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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: DarylS]
      #94392 - 16/01/08 02:13 PM

Daryl,

I have been reluctant to try ball as both the barrels on my shotgun 'appear' to have a full choke. It is something I would like cleared and will start a seperate thread regarding the same.

The performance you mention is impressive but would I be right in thinking that accuracy with ball from a smoothbore would be no where near what you have encountered?

Thanks.

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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94400 - 16/01/08 03:51 PM

9.3x57,

Getting wheel weights is not a problem but smokeless powder and primers are getting very difficult to find. Infact, it's close to impossible in my neck of the woods. BP is available but I am not sure I want to try it, especially since my knowledge of reloading is nil.

Just out of curiosity, what would a very simple handloading kit comprise off? Let's assume all I wanted to do was replace the Mirage slug with a ball.

Perhaps the Clever Mirage slugs are available in the U.S.. You could contact them at http://www.clevervr.com/contact_us.html if you like.

One of the slugs I am using is found towards the bottom of http://www.clevervr.com/game.html It's the T4 Solengo Slug 12 - 2 3/4 - HB.

Edited by RHB (16/01/08 03:53 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: RHB]
      #94431 - 17/01/08 01:06 AM

Quote:

BP is available but I am not sure I want to try it, especially since my knowledge of reloading is nil.

Just out of curiosity, what would a very simple handloading kit comprise off? Let's assume all I wanted to do was replace the Mirage slug with a ball.





RHB:

Thanks for the link. I will email them and see if there is a distributor carrying them here. If they are available I can get some and do a comparative test between them, a Brenneke and Foster type slugs in my test media. Also that would provide a comparison with all the rifle calibers I've shot and posted elsewhere.

I should have asked before...What GAME are you shooting? Reason I ask is that if the game is small buck of some sort, probably even those RC4's would be fine, if available.

I'm sure Daryl will get involved here, but my recommendation of BP is that it may be safer to replace the smokeless charge with a volumetric charge of black and then work loads with roundball than it would be to merely replace a slug with a roundball. Changing compnenets in shotgun shells just willynilly can reslt in unpredictable and possibly very high pressures. Using BP might be safer.

As for a loading tool a cheap Lee tool would get you started. Maybe $40 US? I used to have one and it worked, tho it wouldn't hold up to thousands of rounds. However, for merely removing the existing slug and seating a RB, you could probably get away with a homemade inertia "bullet puller" and hand seat the wad and slug with a dowel.

Let's see what Daryl has to say!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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RHB
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: 9.3x57]
      #94439 - 17/01/08 02:19 AM

Hi 9.3x57, if you could get those Mirage slugs and do a comparative test against the Brenekkes and Fosters it would be great.

Do e-mail them but don't hold your breath...

As far as game is concerned, hunting has been banned in India since 1972. However, I am pro-hunting and then some, so any information you chaps can provide would be welcome.

By bullet puller, are you refering to a kinetic hammer? Never seen one of those in the 'flesh' but I am curious as to how the slug could be removed considering the kind of 'crimp' you see in some of the pics.

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9.3x57
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Re: RC4 Slugs: the Acid Test [Re: RHB]
      #94441 - 17/01/08 02:29 AM

Quote:

By bullet puller, are you refering to a kinetic hammer? Never seen one of those in the 'flesh' but I am curious as to how the slug could be removed considering the kind of 'crimp' you see in some of the pics.



The roll crimp on a slug presents a challenge for the slug to overcome, but years ago I remember seeing a cobbled-together, homemade kinetic puller fashioned for shotgun that consisted of a hardwood board with a hole drilled that just allowed the shell body to pass thru but the rim stopped it from passing all the way thru. Then a simple swinging lever of flat steel was swung over the shell head {one screw attaching it to the board} to keep the shell from falling out of the board as it is lifted to strike.

The board was then swung to strike an anvil {contacting the wood, not the shell!}, with the contents of the shell being caught in a container like a bowl or coffee can, etc. As with all kinetic pullers, I suspect trial and error gives the user the idea of how much effort to give to unseat the bullet without making a mess of things or otherwise breaking the puller. I am not sure what effect all this would have on the roll crimp. I'm thinking that time and careful, creative engineering should make for a useable tool that would result in a reloadable case.

I emailed the slug company. I'm holding my breath...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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