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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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333_okh
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Loc: Northern California
Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap]
      #88704 - 11/11/07 11:58 AM

I love to hunt wild boar and sometimes go with a few friends that use dogs. I would love to remodel an H&R Slug gun to shoot brass cases and paradox/bore type conical or ball. Would this be possible to treat one of these rifles in 20 bore or 12 bore as a paradox type rifle and duplicate similar loads either in smokeless or black powder? I would remodel the stocks and finish of the rifle of course, but thought of it instead of my 28 bore double. It is too old.



Edited by CptCurl (14/10/12 10:53 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 333_okh]
      #88717 - 11/11/07 07:00 PM

A number of guys over on the DoubleGun BBS have done just this over the years, with fully rifled barrels. The twist-rate is probably designed for sabots, but Fosbery-style slugs worked fine for them. They used plastic shells though, and why not since once-fired hulls are cheaper than dirt!?

Unfortunately those forums have a short thread life and searches for anything over a few months old are fruitless.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Tatume
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: Marrakai]
      #88722 - 11/11/07 11:28 PM

I have been hunting with a 12 ga H&R Ultra Slug rifle for many years now, and have been delighted with it. It shoots Foster-type slugs very well, but my favorite hunting load is the 2-3/4" Federal Premium with 325 gr, 0.500" Barnes Expander ML bullet at 1900 fps. This is a real killer.

The H&R is an extremely reliable, very accurate rifle. Mine was fired extensively the summer I got it, looking for favorite ammo. It consistantly held 2 MOA at 100 yards. I fire three shots with it every year just to check zero, and it maintains that standard. It will shoot better groups, but I consider the worst group to be the important one.

There is no reason not to use brass cases; the gun is chambered for 3" shotshells so a brass case up to that length should be fine. The only ones I've ever seen were the 2-3/4" OO buckshot my father used in the Navy.

There was a thread on customizing this rifle sometime in the past year. You might want to look it up. I've never tried roundball ammo in my H&R. I'll look forward to your report.

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333_okh
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: Tatume]
      #88740 - 12/11/07 03:52 AM

well I am not finding 3 inch shells in brass for either the 20 or the 12 guage. I want to use brass due to some differences in the loads I will be using. I have seen problems where the plastic ruptured or melted a little. Plus I will be using bullets as much as 600+ grains in the 12 if I go with that gauge.

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DarylS
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 333_okh]
      #88745 - 12/11/07 05:30 AM

The heavier walled smooth 12's can be rifled with cutters. Buttons might not work. The other option is to have someone like "Moody" cut a barrel for you, then sweat it into your standing breech - if for the gun pictured. He can make any twist rate, octagonal, oct/round or straight round and tapered. He makes most bore sizes as well. I'd go with a 16 bore. I think his bore size is .665" & a 75" or 80" twist would be about perfect for round ball. The balls will weigh roughly 440gr. and if patched inside the plastic case, will give great power and accuracy. Moody's barels are for black powder only. He may be able to rifle an existing 12 bore barrel for you and if so, any twist. A .730" round ball will weigh well over 600gr. and is to be preferred to an slug in that calibre - for accuracy as well as killing power within iron sight range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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333_okh
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: DarylS]
      #88767 - 12/11/07 01:29 PM

I would like to use the rifled barrel the gun comes with.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 333_okh]
      #88809 - 12/11/07 11:22 PM

I use 870 gn projectiles in my single barreled paradox and use winchester plastic AA hulls with out any problems.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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333_okh
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #88900 - 13/11/07 03:33 PM

Do you know the velocity or have the load data for the 870 grain load you are using?

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450_Ackley
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 333_okh]
      #89049 - 15/11/07 06:38 PM

Google Rocky Mountain Catridge Co. for custom made brass cases.
Send Dave a chamber cast and he will CNC turn you some cases to match the cast, alleviating the need to size the crap out of then at each firing.
(Mine should land here in Oz next week I hope!)

David.

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Yogi000
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #90223 - 01/12/07 04:25 AM

I have the same Ultra Slugger and have found it to be very accurate. I put a Nikon 3-9 40mil scope on it and thus far anything up to 100 yards is toast.

My last deer was heartshot quartering away and since I was in a tree---downward. I was using a sabot, winchester gold. If it wasn't for the steep ravine the deer fell down into it would have only stumbled 10 yards... Needless to say that was alot of work to pull that deer up and out. Big deer.

I haven't loaded any slugs for it YET, however I too would like to try handloads and some round ball in my H&R. I also intend to give DixieSlugs a tryout on this gun. They make some massive 700 plus grainer slugs that are supposed to be accurate with H&R Ultra sluggers 12 gauges. I did some googling and found brass 12 gauge shells at a number of sources. I bought some of mine online and some at a gun show I stumbled into in Montana when I was driving through. I am sure MidwayUSA has them. Try there!

I refinished the wood on my H&R. I used a combination of Behlen's Blood Red stain and Dar Walnut, then I rubbed it out with multiple coats of Tung oil and Linseed oil. It looks much better compared to how I bought the gun... It was used. I think I paid something stupid like $105 bucks for it. Most under-rated gun I own. Too bad it is not a double!!! haha

Let me know how you (all) make out with your slug testing in your H&Rs and I will try to keep you posted too on any developments on my H&R.

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DarylS
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: Yogi000]
      #91185 - 11/12/07 03:34 AM

The LYMAN SHOTSHELL handbook also has ball, slug and bullet loads listed in it's buckshot and slug data section for 20 as well as 12 bore. I am referring to the older #2 edition, but perhaps the new ones have even better, up to date data.
: Since you guys are talking about the H&H slugers, and that they have them in 20 bore, this data may be of use. The slug they used was the Lyman 340gr., but since it's hollow based as any Foster, it will lack penetration on heavy game. They also list data for the 410gr. and 425gr. Lyman .54 cal slugs. These are loaded inside plastic shot wads, with the wad falling off at the muzzle. This would allow using them as-cast, no lube whatsoever, with no leading, either. Some plastic cases allow loading these up to just over 1,400fps - that's power and penetration for moose and elk, from a little 20 bore - imagine. Unforunately, their round ball data is for choked guns, therefore they use only a .575" round ball. For cylinder or rifled bores, you could use .600", 610" or .615" and the gas seal cup-up to centre and spin the ball in the rifling or in a cylinder smoothbore. If you want some starting places for loads for 20 bore, let me know. The 12 bore thread has some 12 bore loads already.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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333_okh
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: DarylS]
      #211974 - 03/07/12 01:04 PM

I am still interested in this project....good walkabout gun in the hog country I like to walk. I am thinking 20 gauage, and I saw a load for one that was 535 grains. I want something close to original paradox et al loads.

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Sarg
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 333_okh]
      #212033 - 04/07/12 10:44 AM

Plan sounds good, you dont need brass case's with them unless you use BP & I think you still get one shot a case but dont use plastic wads .

Im looking at making 1 or 2 on a Baikal shotgun to use in shotgun only country's or where shotguns are thought to be less dangerous ???

Im eyeing a couple of South American country's

I think more power in 12ga & try RB, in my massive 12bore double rifle I shoot 600gr RB at up to 2000fps, most likely too much in a light shotgun,(my thinking now is 1850fps is the load) but look up some of Ed's 12ga from Hell loads to try !

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DarylS
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: Sarg]
      #212074 - 05/07/12 01:45 AM

Ed also has 20 bore loads or at least talks about them, somewhere, in that multi page thread.


I agree on the 12 bore loads being better suited for everything. 2,000fps with a 600gr. ball is 5,329fpe, if that's meaningful.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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333_okh
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: DarylS]
      #212102 - 05/07/12 10:32 AM

Was thinking of brass cases so I can ensure they are sealed to our near constant rain while hog hunting. Where do I find "ed" on here for 20 gauge loads?

P.S. Just seemed the little 20 bore H&R with bull barrel would be good. Looked like it is actually built on the 12 gauge action. The 12 gauge bull I saw had a larger action than my old H&R Tropper.

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DarylS
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 333_okh]
      #212136 - 06/07/12 12:00 AM

Check this thread out. Somewhere in there, you will find mention of this same gun you are talking about, and the loads Ed and others use in them.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=44720&an=0&page=0#Post44720

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (06/07/12 12:02 AM)

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nitro450exp
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: DarylS]
      #212153 - 06/07/12 06:24 AM

333

I bought the same gun, but not the bull barrel version.
To use as a test mule, for accuracy and load development, for my 20 bore double rifle project.
I have been using Cheddite multi hulls 3" and also RMC custom brass.
I have only scratched the surface but it has proven to be a sound platform.

Nitro

PS: See my thread in this forum.

PPS: My RMC 3" fits the 3" chamber no problem as well as Alcan 20 ga brass and Fiocchi brass cases.(both 2.5")

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (06/07/12 06:26 AM)

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333_okh
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Reged: 24/12/05
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Loc: Northern California
Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: nitro450exp]
      #212169 - 06/07/12 10:29 AM

will do....I am interested in finding a nice lead cast hollow point or a slug I can drill the hollow into it.

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nitro450exp
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: 333_okh]
      #212186 - 06/07/12 11:54 PM

333

I got some pure lead bullets from a guy on another site.
They are 720 grains cast from a modified 600 NE mold (originally 900 grain but shortened at the base)
When drilled with 3/8" bit (HP) they end up being 500 ~ 550 depending on depth.
Have not had a chance to try them yet.
I need to put lube in the grooves, but have none.

Nitro

PS: They are 0.622".

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (06/07/12 11:55 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: nitro450exp]
      #212187 - 07/07/12 12:11 AM

A mix of good beeswax 60% with 40% of Vaseline is a wonderful lube for bullets - black powder or smokeless.

Of course, Lyman, Lee and RCBS 50/50 (BW/Alox) mixes work fine with smokeless powders but are horrid with black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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jaz
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: DarylS]
      #212226 - 07/07/12 09:18 PM

I like Paradox and ball and shot guns. But the H&R is something else. Fifteen years ago I bought the single H&R rifled barrel for my daughter as her first gun. A super shooter! Then they came came out with the bull barrel version. Amazing. I can shoot Hornady (20 gauge) sabots in the same hole at 100 yards. It is incredibly accurate. Scope and all. I have had over a dozen Paradox guns and they are unique and collectible. But when I hunt, nothing in the bore rifles can touch these guns for accuracy. I have spent more on Paradox components than the entire H&R cost!!! Just an amazing gun and value.

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DarylS
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: jaz]
      #212233 - 07/07/12 11:20 PM

Is H&R calling that rifle a Paradox? The use of that name to describe a cheap single shot break open modern rifle will upset some, for sure.

A real Paradox Gun has a smooth bore except for the last few inches which are tightly choked and rifled - not rifled the full length of the tubes. It is very doubtful that H&R could actually build a real Paradox - few makers today have the knowledge, expertise or willingness to undertake such a venture. Paradox rifles are doubleguns, not single shots.

Does the H&R fill a need and work well? The answer to that is obvious - yes, but a Paradox it certainly isn't - in my honest opinion.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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jaz
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: DarylS]
      #212269 - 08/07/12 04:57 AM

Please do not confuse the two, no, H&R never referenced the Paradox. I was only touting the value of the "Slugger". Only a Holland & Holland can be a Paradox, not an Explora, Colindian, Jungle Gun, Faueneta, Ubique nor an H&R.

I have shot deer with a twelve, ten and 8 Paradox's, all good fun, but several years ago when pursuing an especially nice buck, I needed the most accurate rifle I could use. (Centerfire rifles Prohibited) Yes, it may be insane to compare the two names in a sentence but.....

Edited by CptCurl (14/10/12 10:54 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: jaz]
      #212287 - 08/07/12 12:17 PM

Sorry, my mistake in interpretation & not knowing your 'history'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
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Re: Modern Single Shot Bore Gun [cheap] [Re: DarylS]
      #212487 - 11/07/12 04:43 AM

Um, hi, my name is Tom and I hunt with an H&R... I feel like I'm part of a 12 step program everytime the topic comes up.

With a few guns to work from which have way more curb appeal than that one, I have to admit that it is my go to gun anyway.
I have the slimmer version 20ga, the chamber end of which was thick enough to tap for mounts. With a minimum of fixes it is simply a lightweight, dependable, accurate deer gun. I haven't had any luck getting it to shoot big lead accurately, although after seeing Daryl's posting on stuffing ml slugs in a wad that could change.
If there is a bruiser deer floating around that I will likely only get one shot at and the range may stretch a bit, I doubt that I would be carrying anything else...

Except maybe my .58 Jeager, but thats for the late season.


First deer that I picked up with it in 2004


Cheers,

Tom

Edited by CptCurl (14/10/12 10:55 PM)

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