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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #42284 - 24/11/05 10:46 AM

Thanks for the comments on the wads.

I had been thinking of what to do with wadding in these cases. With today's BP being -not so much- as hot as that found in the nineteenth century, I wanted to maximize powder room. Also as I had a mould that threw .666" pure lead balls *which were undersize a tad for the gun I was working with* I wanted a good gas seal for consistent pressures/velocities.

I'd had a talk with Lewis Drake about shooting the sixteen bore rifle and he gave me good advice:
Get a good seal.

I'd gotten lots of advice from others to use felt wads, I'd always figured that the pressure of combustion would wrap the wad around the ball -decreasing the outside diameter- of the wad. The donut shape solution followed the day I was packing up for my friend's ranch and a shooting session.
Picking through a drawer of punches I saw a small one and the idea hit me to take advantage of the shape of the roundball as a wedge to maximize bore contact.

Really it works great.

If I get a moment this weekend I'm gonna ditch the house and head out to the ranch for some bore rifle shooting.
I'll post something if I get chrono readings.

Tell me more about that wad lube.
What's cleanup like after a shooting session?
The WonderLube is pretty amazing stuff, I don't get any rust or corrosion of any kind from the powder residue, which stays soft.
You guys ever use that stuff? It's yellow and smells of Camphor.
How would you compare your recipe to WonderLube, besides being available whenever you want it, and much cheaper than commercial wad lube?



--Tinker





--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: tinker]
      #42329 - 25/11/05 10:03 AM

In ctg. loads, I find the Beeswax/Vas to be every bit as good as any comerical lube I've tried.
: OxYoke sells Borebutter, another great one, in stick form as well as the ones Lyman sells.
: Soaking fibre (donacona) wads in lube realy helps, but there has to be something to separate them from the powder.
: Rubbing lube around the perifery works too.
: As well, if using the bast cup off shotshells, the plastic also has to be separated from the powder. BP melts it to the bore. They are a very good way of holding a ball inside the bore, though.
: I like the idea of the hollow wad, to obturate to the bore, but still like a hard card on the powder.
: With a good lube, and enough of it, cleanup of the bore should be done with a couple cloth patches. I used the one patch, shiny bore as an indication of a good lube with ctgs. I don't see why it wouldn't work that way with the bore rifle.
; If the bore doens't clean almost all for the fouling out with one patch through it, the lube didn't do the job. Beeswax/Vas works for me, as does SPG and BoreButter by OxYoke.
: I've not used Wonderlube (white stuff) for many years so cannot coment on it specifically.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #42331 - 25/11/05 10:17 AM

Bill- I've not had the desire to build one that big. The 14 bore did everything I need in a rifle and more. My buddies .75 is a bit of a chore to shoot, having deep round bottomed grooves, is difficult to shoot cleanly. It will go some 20 rounds before wiping seems to be necessary, or a squib load of 70gr. or 80gr. with spit lubed patch can be fired, which does the same job.
: With proper shallow, 100' rilfing twist, patched balls can be shot in the 14 bore cast of straight WW quite easily. My ctg. worked with them, but not patches with greater than 100gr. 2F. the thicker patches required for heavier loads, wouldn't permit using harder balls. Shallower, slower rifling would have.
: S.Baker once wrote in the F&H of Ceylon, that a 14 bore would go through and through an elephant's head. He was probably talking about an Indian Elephant at that, but kinda proves penetration.
: I once disintegrated an old concrete slab 2 1/2" X 8" X 12" long with one shot of a WW ctg. load of 165gr. 2F. The ball expanded to 1" in ida. yet retained 90% weight. the largest piece of that block was 3" across. The block was 80yd form the shooting line. I was impressed.
; The 14 works here, in North America and is somewhat overbore, but it's nice to see an 1,100lb Bull Moose shudder and colapse at the impact. A .54 rifle only gets an immediate, panic stricken run-off without sign of it being hit at all.
: I-too would love to hunt Africa, but would probably opt for a 10 or 12 bore double rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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PAPI
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Reged: 26/11/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Calif; USA
Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #42448 - 27/11/05 02:35 AM

Hi ,

I'm a newbie to this forum & interested in large Bore Muzzleloader/Firearms . I have a .58 Caliber Kodiak Double Rifle and started thinking of something a little bigger that could handle heavier powder charges.

I found a website of a of a person building "Underhammer Muzzleloaders " in Calibers .45 - 4 Bore at a very reasonable price ( www.underhammers.com ).

I'm playing with the idea of a " .62 Cal " that will shoot balls at low velocity for target shooting and Heavy Conicals ( 500;700;900grn ) for hunting Wild Boar , Deer , Bear , Elk.

L.M.

Edited by PAPI (29/11/05 04:01 PM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: PAPI]
      #42565 - 30/11/05 06:36 AM

A .62 calibre needs no slugs. The patched round ball is sufficient for all game you list, including Alaskan & BC moose. To increase the power of a muzzleloading rifle, increase the bore size, not the weight of the slug. A larger bore not only produces mush more dramatic results on game, but recoils less than the same weight slug from a smaller bore.
: A .715" ball weighs 545gr. and is sufficient for Tiger, Water Buffalo and Indian Elephant, not to mention most African game.
: There is a fellow on the www.americanlongrifles.com who has the underhammer rifles you speak of, right up to .73 calibre. You could go there and ask him.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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PAPI
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Reged: 26/11/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Calif; USA
Re: Building a big bore [Re: DarylS]
      #42575 - 30/11/05 08:13 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the info !

I haven't ordered anything yet. Just researching all of my options before putting out the $$$, for another toy !

If everything works out , I just might end up hunting & living in Alaska ( :

L.M.

Edited by PAPI (30/11/05 08:14 AM)


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: PAPI]
      #42665 - 01/12/05 08:17 AM

See my post, I just got the 12 bore Kodiak, waiting for the weekend to shoot it. You might try reading the Chuck Hawks web site on his 12 bore kodiak experence at www.chuckhawks.com

Jason

PS: Not sure I believe everything he says though.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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BlainSmipy
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: DarylS]
      #42666 - 01/12/05 08:19 AM

have you ever figured out what the knock down power of your 12 bore is? What sort of FPE are you getting with the round ball?

Thanks,
Jason

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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BlainSmipy
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #42669 - 01/12/05 08:30 AM

What kind of ballistics were you getting with the monster slugs?

Were can I get some to try? Can the Kodiak take the load/pressure/recoil?

Thanks,
Jason

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #42718 - 02/12/05 04:01 AM

FPE really means nothing in killing power of round balls - and most everything else for that matter. for example:
: I have witnessed a .54 round ball, started at (for it) a measley 1,600 to 1,700fps, only 100 gr. Pyrodex, kill a big bull moose at a lazered 170 yards. Impact fpe might have been in the 270 to 300 range. The ball broke a rib going in, first lung, centred the heart, off lung, and was under the hide of the off side. The moose bolted at the shot wihtout sign of being hit, but dropped within 40 yards of where it was standing when shot.
: Those who like big numbers, like to think it takes 1,500fpe impact energy to kill a moose, and 1,000 for deer. The above noted 235gr. ball had neither and perhaps a 1/3 of what is supposed to be needed for deer. This should show how much faith should be put in numbers which reward high velocity only, but tell nothing of what a particular projectile is capable of.
: My close friend and hunting buddy, with his "Purdey styled" .75 rifle, had to drop his hunting load from 200gr. all the way down to 120gr. of 2F, just to keep a .735" round ball inside a moose. For the first 4 years he used it, he couldn't keep a ball inside. He merely wanted to recover the balls as records of his moose, something he does with his modern rifles. Bull moose here run in the 900 to 1,300lb. range, with the odd giant of 1,500lbs., considerably larger than the Shiras moose, common in some areas.
: I prefer to have a large round ball travelling 1,500 to 1,500fps to obtain a reasonably flat point blank range to 1000yds. where the ball is not more than 1 1/2" above nor below the line of sight. A 14 bore, with .684" ball of 484gr., will give such a point blank range to 120yds with 165gr. 2F GOEX BP. To have that flat trajectory with a large ball, is a wonderful thing. Having the ball within 1 1/2" of the Line of sight to 120yds. makes pin point accuracy a normal & easily aquired result. With the large bore, accuracy merely improves, the more powder used and the trajectory becomes flatter, rather than giving any expra elevation to the ball. The sights must be low, on the barrel for this longer range Point blank sight to work properly. High sights merely add elevation to the ball with more powder, destroying it's point blank range. Light loads and attendent low velocity also destroy the point blank range, due to required high elevation at say, 50yd. to hit the mark at 100.
: When a 14 bore or larger ball strikes a large game animal like a Moose or Elk, the animal shudders and collapses at the impact. A smaller bore, like a .54, while effective for the same North American game, fails to show hits like this. The animal merely makes a frightened dash. The moose story at the top of this post had the guide thinking the hunter had missed and wanted to get the dogs to track it, yet it lay 40 yds. from where it was standing when shot, just out of sight of the hunters.
: I firmly don't believe in FPE and really feel there is no mathematical formula which describes what a properly placed bullet of ball will do.
: ACCURCY is what is desired, with "Enough Power". The bore rifles have that in spades.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: tinker]
      #42719 - 02/12/05 04:12 AM

Tinker - my own .14 bore, .684" pure lead ball of 484gr. with 6 drams (165gr.) ran an average of 1,550fps. With the point blank sight low, and the front bead down on the barrel, this gave me a point blank range of 120yds. with a 100yd zero. I had to go way over 200gr. of powder to achieve 1,700fps. so I settled on 165gr 2F (6 drams) as being an accurate, full charge hunting load.
: Impacts at 100yds on Moose, were a sight to see. The moose shuddering on impact, and collapsing inwards, it seemed. "Taking his wind out" was one of Forsyth's phrases. This happend time and time again. I surely do love the 14 bore. Forsyth was spot-on in his recommending this gauge as an all-round bore size for large game. It is accurate, has resonable recoil for a large game rifle and is very effective on the game.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: DarylS]
      #42759 - 02/12/05 11:21 AM

Were in BC are you hunting with all these moose around?

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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PAPI
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Reged: 26/11/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Calif; USA
Re: Building a big bore [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #43956 - 14/12/05 10:26 AM

FYI:

Blackpowder Muzzleloader 8 Bore for sale:
(www.auctionarms.com)

L.M.


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BlainSmipy
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #44325 - 18/12/05 11:03 AM

Bill, Daryle

I am seriously looking at building an 8 bore single barrel as my first scratch build. I see Oregon Barrels will build you a 8 bore barrel in any twist for $350 bucks. You can get a English Sporting Stock with pistol grip pre-shaped from Long Rifle Supply fiarly cheap. You can get everything from them to build this rifle in 8 bore as a matter of fact. What a hoot it would be to build and shoot it. I probably start on it in the next month or after the year end bonus kicks in. I think I'd go with a 1-70 or so twist and a shallow groove for hard balls.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #49561 - 09/02/06 06:55 AM

I am now experimenting with patch lubes, and aside from LehighValley lube, which works perfectly in my .45 Flinter and bro's .60 Jaeger rifle, we've found a couple with good results. A 50/50 mix of Murphy's oil Soap and Castor oil works as well as LehighValley lub ein my rifle and my bro's. Another, with Windshield washer antifreezxe, Murphy's and Olive oil, mixed 1:2:2 works well too and is my bro's favourite due to the relatively high cost of Castor oil up here.
: For me, the ultimate lube must allow shooting all day without having to wipe the bore, and must remain pliable down to -20F, -40 would be even better. The very cold temps are an 'extra' for the 'ultimate' lube. Shooting all day long are normal requirements, which are met with the above lubes.
: A very good friend of mine has a "Purdey" style single barreled rifle in .75 cal with a deep grooved custom barrel. Unfortunately, our barrels are rather fast twists and require very snug patching to keep the powder gasses behind the ball. Being able to use the very same patch for a 5 shot group shows no gas cutting or blow-by in my .69.
: With the deep groove barrel on my firend's rifle, his patches burn a bit, although giving good accuracy.
: The .75 worked splendidly on Moose, with 200gr. charges, and .735" balls exiting and from about any angle. It is a "Devil Stomper" in it's own right. He's tested to 250gr.2G and even his 200gr. charge kicks to much for this lad. The .69, with up to 6 drams (and more) is quite manageable and shoots into 1-1/2" at 100yds for 5 shot groups off the bags. This barrel's 66" twist and .012" depth rifling required a .684" ball with .022" denim patch to withstand the twist and velocity. Accuracy was relatively unchanged from about 120gr. to 200gr., giving from 1,350fps to 1,700fps. a 'sqib' load of 3 drams(82gr.)of 3F actually gave 1,225fps. and could use .015" patching.
: The word "Folding" applied to large game shot with these very powerful round ball rifles, is quite correct.
: If going after Cape Buffalo, I-too would reach for a double 10 bore, but an 11 bore would suffice- HA!
: A close friend has an original 6 bore ball and shot gun, that weighs some 13 lbs. with 34" tubes. It has an elevator block rear sight with centre silver line, for a point blank sight for ball, which is quite intriguing.
: He's shot trap with it using 2 1/2oz. 7-1/2's Good display and surprisingly good patterns from it's non-choked bores.
: Large bore round ball rifles are intriguing, for sure.
: I live in the physical centre of British Columbia. Lot's of moose here.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49581 - 09/02/06 11:07 AM

I'm still on for building this gun..although the bonus did not happen this year. I did also find all of the necessary parts to build the same 8 bore double gun that October Country used to build, minus the barrels, breech plugs and tang. I did find the locks, stock, triggers, guard, butt plate, etc. Bill Moody build the barrels and I have not been able to get his number anywhere. Any body have this?

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #49780 - 12/02/06 06:51 AM

Sorry- no number for Bil Moody. I just finished talking to Joe, an Oregon barrel maker, who will make me whtever twist I want, and whatever depth desired.
; As his cutter is rounded, I expect a 13 or 14 bore barrel with .005 or .006" deep rounded rilfing, at 112" on a 28" barrel should answer well for the barrel. 1- 1/4" breech, tapered to 1-1/8" muzzle and 9 rto 9 1/2lbs weight will be perfect.
: www.trackofthewolf.com has all the other parts necesary, from a good English-style Davis lock with proper hammer, to English breech plug, rib, stock wood, ramrod pipes - all the necessary parts. The large non-inlet English Fowler blank should work just fine.
; Track also has 2 sets of plans. The Egnoish Rifle pans, and the Purdey plans. Believe me when I say the Purdey has a rather thin wrist. The picture doesn't show it, but it is very narrow, side to side, in comparrison. A heavy gun should be made slightly heavier than a deer rifle.
: The rifle pitured below, was made from the Engish Rifle plans and is a 14 bore rifle with 30" bl. The wood is from a California english/claro blank. The rear sight is a single standing point blank sight with 3 hinged leafs. The front sight is a 1/16" bead tapered bronze rod soldered to an iron base. The point blank sights are low to the barrel, giving a point blank range of 120yards, where the ball is only up to 1-1/2" above or below the line of sight. It is a very flat shooting rifle & perhaps the ultimate for hunting in N.America and in India. It's effective range on animals as large as moose or elk, would easily be 200yard plus, if charged accordingly, however if one is a good hunter, shots past 100 yards are not necessary. It is better learn to hunt well, than to have to track a wounded animal. Animals shot with these large bores, seldom,if ever, have to be tracked.
:

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (17/07/11 10:00 PM)


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Dphariss
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #68861 - 05/01/07 06:58 PM

Quote:

Anyone built a big-bore BP rifle, single-shot, percussion in say, 10-,12- or 14-bore? I have a hankering to build a rifle Samuel Baker would be happy to hunt with. Looking for thoughts on twist, barrel thickness, stock and lock supplier, bore dimensions, etc. for a conical shooter.




I would avoid conicals. Look into the writings of the ML era and you will find they did not work so well. Velocity will be low and recoil high to extreme. A 12 bore conical is going to weigh at last 2 to 2.5 ounces. Based on what I have read from Samuel Baker and others killing power will be less than a round ball of the same caliber unless the conical is very close the the round balls weight.
If you can find a copy of "Pondoro" By John Taylor in it he details the killing of 8 Rhino and 13 "good bulls" Elephant with a 10 bore smoothbore shooting 6 drams of BP and hardened balls. This a gun he borrowed when his shipment of ammunition did not arrive on time.
Forsythe in "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" written in the 1850s, details the disadvantages of the conical as a hunting projectile based on his experience living and hunting extensively in India. He stated that with 5 drams of powder his short barreled (26" IIRC) rifle using a hardened 15 to the pound ball would shoot through an Indian Elephant's head from side to side. His only use of conicals was with a bursting charge that he designed to explode inside the animal.

I just received an Ed Rayl barrel 30" long, .675" bore (takes a 16 to the pound ball) 95" twist wide grooves .008" deep.
I figure its about all the recoil my neck will stand at 1600 fps.
Making a late English style, recessed breech flintlock rifle. Either Manton style or a Henry Tatham Indian trade rifle.
You might try Ed for a barrel. I don't have his address handy right now. Its in the back of the Rifle Shoppe's Catalog.
Dan


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BillfromOregon
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: Dphariss]
      #68976 - 07/01/07 03:19 AM

Dan: I recently ordered a .69 1:100 twist barrel from Joe at Oregon Barrel Works. It will be a round ball rifle. For heavy conical shooting, it is hard to beat the Pedersoli Kodiak .72 double.
Please do post when you complete your English sporting rifle.
Bill
P.S. Appreciate all your writing over the years.


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szihn
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #81220 - 24/06/07 12:10 PM

Howdy gentlemen.

My name is Steve Zihn
I make muzzleloaders to earn my living. I am new here. Just joined today.
If any of you'd like to chat about building, please let me know. I like to share ideas with like minded folks, and I would be happy to advise and help in any way I can.
To see some of my work, go to photobucket.com and type szihn in the search box.
I hope to make some new friends here.

happy hunting
Steve


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Dphariss
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #81986 - 07/07/07 04:56 PM

The 16 bore is in the white and shooting though I haven't got it shooting as well as I want. Found an unexpected hoop day before yesterday and jumped through it or so it seems and now its showing promise. I need to put a tang sight on the thing or get one of those aperture thingys for my eyeglasses.
Unless the light is bright the sights get too fuzzy to shoot.

With the Nock breech it makes about 1750FPS average with 140gr weighed of FFG Swiss. This will really make a 3+- gal plastic jug of water "splash". Just had to try this. Wife gets cat litter in the jugs.
With 110 from my volume measure it makes about 1640 fps. This is about as low as I want to go for flat trajectory.
The 140 grain load makes pretty heavy recoil, for Dan anyway, in a 10 pound rifle. But the buttstock design is good and it does not mark the shoulder at all though 20 rounds or so will make one a little sore. The 110 gr load is much nicer.
Will do an update when I get it colored, but that may not be for a few months depending on circumstances. Why I am shooting it white for now. Time crunch.

Dan


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: Dphariss]
      #82012 - 08/07/07 04:08 AM

Glad to hear the 16 bore is ready to finish, Dan. That 140gr. charge is really a good one. Obviously, Swiss is a much more efficient powder than the GOEX that we are able to get here.
: Have you tired express-type sights? I find the shallow "V" with a front bead to be much better than a narrow slot and post or blade front sight.
: One of Track's Jaeger sights with one flip-up blade, re-shaped properly, would make an excellent sight for an English big bore. I do like the bead, especially for hunting. I also find it suitable for a target ML as well. This is how I finally made the sights for my .40 flinter, after some shooting with narrow "V" and blade. The rear sight was just too fuzzy to see, while the shallow "V" is much better observed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #86450 - 02/10/07 06:13 AM

Quote:

have you ever figured out what the knock down power of your 12 bore is? What sort of FPE are you getting with the round ball?

Thanks,
Jason




A 16 bore will make 2650-3000 at the muzzle with 110-140 gr of FFG Swiss. But as Daryl posted its just a number. With BP and large diameter balls its really meaningless.
They will kill large animals very well to ranges of 150 yards or more though the energy level is far under what the "moderns" with their little copper jacketed slugs think is needed.
The 50-54 cal rb will shoot through and cleanly kill deer with broadside shots at retained energy levels most modern hunters would scoff at as useless.
The modern small bore copper jacketed bullet, especailly teh spitzer type, must expand to produce a 50-75 caliber wound channel. The round balls of 50-75 caliber need not expand to produce a big hole.
If the spitzer does not expand it make a very tiny wound channel that will not kill quickly inless it strikes the heart or a major artery. Expansion requires high impact velocities/energies.

Dan


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szihn
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Re: Building a big bore [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #86473 - 02/10/07 02:31 PM

Well, how about a nice 8 bore?






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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 434
Loc: SC, USA
Re: Building a big bore [Re: szihn]
      #86487 - 02/10/07 09:30 PM

Steve,
why must you tempt me so?


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