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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Weatherby
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Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 9
Loc: NSW, Australia
.375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ?
      #83879 - 11/08/07 07:17 PM

Im about to get myself a .375 and cant decide between a .375 H&H Mag or a 375 Weatherby Mag.

Ill start by saying Im a Weatherby Man. Ive got a number of them and swear by them for other calibers. In saying that Id like to hear from anyone who has owed / fired / hunted with both calibers and can provide me with any useful advice.

It will be a gun I take to Africa and up into the NT of Australia.

Thanks

--------------------
Outback
NSW, Australia


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ozhunter
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: Weatherby]
      #83882 - 12/08/07 12:11 AM

Although I have not used the 375 Weatherby, I am all for the use of 375s for big game but only with reduced loads (mv 2400fps approx) so I see no value in the Weatherby and with the fact that 375H&H ammo is so available this is one more reason to go with the H&H .

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DarylS
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: ozhunter]
      #83885 - 12/08/07 01:19 AM

I've hunted only with an H&H, although loaded and tested ammo for a friend with his .375 WTBY and compared our results. There is no difference on game from drop or killing power and either shoots flat enough for 300 yards, beyond which, I believe, no one should be shooting at big game.
: Indeed, even the smaller .375 Scovil or .375/06 IMP does as well, with it's loads in ozhunter's range.
: There is realy no advantage of going larger cased than the .375 Ruger or .375 H&H.
; The Improved case's life-time may be longer, but I got over 12 loadings from my 200 .375H&H original brass and very few guys do that much shooting with their big bores. I used mine for coyotes and ground squirrels to learn how to shoot it accurately. It was good practise.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: DarylS]
      #83891 - 12/08/07 01:46 AM

I have shot both and based on my experience I would choose the 375 H&H over the Weatherby for a variety of reasons..

First of all, you do NOT need that kind of velocity for what you will be hunting.. in Africa, most shots are relatively close --even plains game--I have taken 56 animals to date in Africa and my longest shot so far was on a gemsbok which was about 225.. easily within the limits of a .375..

If I was hunting plains game I would use the 270 bullets--and 300 if dangerous game.. but a premium bullet none the less..

Recoil is dramatically increased from the H&H to the Weatherby..

Ammo is much more readily available around the world for the H&H..

Less recoil, less chance of potential problems with scopes..

As the Weatherby is a proprietary cartridge, unless you buy a gun and yank the barrel for a new one you choiced of firearms chambered in that caliber will be somewhat limited.

I must admit, I am a speed demon when it comes to bolt action cartridges, I have 2 rifles chambered for .257 Weatherby,, with 26" barrels --shooting 100 gr TSX--they chronographed at 3800 plus fps.. the effect on game here in Montana is amazing --however when you kick up to that kind of velocity you really need to choose your bullets carefully.. I am also shooting all the Ultra-mag calibers in one brand of rifle or another--my 300 ultra is in a HS Precision -and there again .. I needed to move a well construted bullet.. 180 gr A-Frames at 3420 fps..

My point in all of this is, that after going to Africa and shooting guns in the 2400 fps to 2700 fps range.. It changed my attitude on speed, realizing that it is not that critical--fun, yes,, necessary, no..

Get the H&H and never look back--it will be a great gun..

thx,

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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xausa
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: Ripp]
      #83894 - 12/08/07 01:56 AM

I wonder if you are referring to the .378 Weatherby, which is the .460 necked down, or to the .375 Weatherby, which is the .375 H&H blown out. The .375 is a dead issue, and although you can shoot .375 H&H ammunition in it safely, the resulting performance is lower than the original .375 H&H.

The .378, which is basically a .416 Rigby necked down with an unnecessary belt added, gives you a slightly flatter trajectory at the expense of far greater recoil and much more expensive and difficult to obtain ammunition.


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Ripp
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: xausa]
      #83896 - 12/08/07 02:08 AM

I was actually referring to the .375 Weatherby, as per friend Richard, apparently for 2007 Weatherby brought back the ammo for a 375 and you can again order a weapon in that caliber..it is shown in their 2007 catalog as well..

As to the 378, I agree, they are a hard kicking machine--not sure if its stock design or all that velocity, but the one I shot seem worse than most any bolt gun I have ever fired..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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hoppdoc
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: Ripp]
      #83909 - 12/08/07 05:07 AM

The 375 H&H/Wby are viable big Game DG cartridges.

The 378 Wby has a flat trajectory but unless you are shooting at distance at non-dangerous game, ie Elk or Moose,etc what does it matter? Other smaller calibers take these animals just as effectively.

For that amount of recoil and abuse your are far better of with a bigger bore caliber if DG is your quarry.Guess I never understood the 378 Wby use as an African caliber.

If I have missed or overlooked some definite unique use of the 378 WBY, someone please let me know--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83913 - 12/08/07 06:52 AM

I have a Sako in .375 H&H and bought a used custom Brno in 375 Weatherby from a friend.

I find some advantages for the Weatherby over the H&H case:
- you can use the 350grs bullets with good velocity
- if your ammo pack gets lost, you can use also H&H ammo without problems
- case stretching is not so pronounced as in the H&H case
- for practise you can load "light" to H&H level

Disadvantages are:
- price for cases and ammo
- availability
- need of a longer barrel (24")
- of course, recoil

I have no experience with terminal performance of these two cartridges, I´m shooting both just for fun!

Rolf


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: Rolf]
      #83916 - 12/08/07 10:38 AM

AussieBGH:

The summation of both answers to the question provided by Ripp and Rolf is so good and so concise those two posts distill 50 years of discussion into just several paragraphs.

Now, the question: "Which one do you WANT?"

I picked the H&H version but those guys really nailed the issues down tight and I have nothing to add.

Please let us know what do DO pick....and why!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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ozhunter
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #83917 - 12/08/07 11:01 AM

We also use the Woodleigh 350grn bullets from the H&H with "good velocity" MV 2360FPS which is great on big game, so I would not put this in the pro's for the Weatherby.

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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: Weatherby]
      #83922 - 12/08/07 12:44 PM

Quote:

Im about to get myself a .375 and cant decide between a .375 H&H Mag or a 375 Weatherby Mag.

Ill start by saying Im a Weatherby Man. Ive got a number of them and swear by them for other calibers......Thanks




ABGH<

The H&H is the most "common sense" choice.....I know you Aussies, you will probaly end up with a Weaherby!

Whatever you decide, enjoy!

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

Edited by AzGuy (13/08/07 12:08 AM)


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Weatherby
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Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 9
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: AzGuy]
      #84118 - 16/08/07 10:51 PM

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I still am yet to make a decision but I agree with everything that has been said. I liked the idea of having that extra 200 fps with the weatherby should I need it and thought about being able to use H&H ammo in the weatherby should I also need that. I suppose because I have a 240 weatherby, 270 weatherby and a 300 weatherby i felt I should take up the 375 weatherby. I do like the weatherby's however I still have other calibres such as 222, 243 Win, 338 Win etc..........

I think I need to really ask myself the question as to which big bore rifle should I get. I think Im settled on a 375 but recently had fun with a 416 Rem Mag shooting buffalos in northern aust. and now am not sure which way to go.

I nearly picked up a 378 weatherby but as someone stated the big boot is really not worth the extra punch. Although I would put on a muzzlebreak if I did end up with it.

I looked into the 375 ruger and whilst i do like its statistics I think one has to wait some time to see how well it will take to everyone. you never know with these things.

The 375 H&H has been around for a long time and the fact that I am considering it over a weatherby shows that I really am considering the calibre. If I ended up with one I wouldnt mind a Blazer.!!!

Maybe Ill get a Mark V Weatherby in 375 H&H calibre and just be happy with that.

thanks again everyone........... Will post my result when i purchase......

--------------------
Outback
NSW, Australia


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: Weatherby]
      #84120 - 17/08/07 12:35 AM

Quote:

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I still am yet to make a decision but I agree with everything that has been said.
I looked into the 375 ruger and whilst i do like its statistics I think one has to wait some time to see how well it will take to everyone. you never know with these things.


thanks again everyone........... Will post my result when i purchase......



:
: I guess I can see your point of view about availability of factory ammo here and abroad, but that's as far as that goes. Any handloader or wildcatter doesn't need 'the people's OK" on choosing a ctg. If the ctg. you really want isn't out there, just invent it yourself, have a reamer ground and chamber it up, then build it. The Ruger has definite benefits over the H&H case, from the number of available actions to stronger and easily obtained brass. The small additonal case capacity means virtually nothing to me and is a negative rather than a bonus."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: DarylS]
      #84123 - 17/08/07 01:10 AM

Forget the 375 Ruger(unproven) and also the Weatherby.
My experience is that the weatherby boots like a barstard and has absolutely no advantages over the H&H375.
To many hunters believe velocity equals penetration.Bullshit!!!
Correctly designed bullets at the recomended speed do the damage.
Check out the woodleigh catalog and you will see what I mean.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #84127 - 17/08/07 02:49 AM

The 375 H&H is a good choice if you don't handload, and even has some advantages over the 416 mag--

It will be easier to find ammo--

No it doesn't have the 416's smack on game but it is more versatile and can shoot longer ranges with less compensation required.

Whatever you choose-enjoy!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (17/08/07 02:50 AM)


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Schamankungulo
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Reged: 21/04/07
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Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #84129 - 17/08/07 04:17 AM

Having had both the H&H and the 378 , IMO , unless you're really doing a lot of long range shooting ( over 300 yds/mtrs ) , then go with the H&H , the 378 kisses you very violently ..
I wouldnt bother with the 375 Wby , practically same performance as the H&H and a lot more spendy to load for ..


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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #84495 - 23/08/07 07:38 PM

I was looking at a similar problem when I was looking for Big/DG rifle and in the end I got the 375H&H and I'm damn glad that I did!!!!

--------------------
One shot is all you need.


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farshot
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Reged: 25/01/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Alberta Canada
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: 260rem]
      #84832 - 29/08/07 03:46 AM

I have a .375 Ackley Improved (rechambered) inmy Sako fiberclass --- i get a measured 2950 ft/s with a 300 gr sierra that shoots sub moa at 300 yds (my usual practice distance). That is over 250 ft/s from the .375 HH. Now, I tend to agree that velocity is not everything when you are shooting 200-250 yds, but I have used the 375AI with great effect on that nmosse or elk standing across a vally or river at 300 plus yards.

I built it thinking it would go to Africa -- it still may - but I agree that you dont need that range in Africa (but maybe -- just for that one monster.....at 400 yds) but in western Canada, where some of the shots can be long, it works quite well, with really very little increase in recoil. I think that my re-chamber of that rifle was the best $150 i ever spent on a rifle.

In Africa, I prefer 9.3 or .416 and my .470 (just in case). But again, last time, my .300 weatherby took serious game out to several hundred yards when they were spooky, so the ranging ability and the ability to shoot that far played a very important role in the success of my hunt when some of my mates were trying to get closer (and having little luck)

I would opt for the .375 weatherby and shoot .375 HH if that is what you feel like doing , but be ready for the extra 250 ft/s if you need it -- especially if you use a 270 gr bullet - the difference would be well worth it imho.


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livinus
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: farshot]
      #84878 - 29/08/07 06:23 PM

Terry Wieland in his book "Dangerous Game Rifles" points at the big difference between
the pronounced body taper of the original 375HH and almost parallel sides of the improved
version. The resulting increased case capacity he says allows higher velocity, but brings the danger of case-sticking because of higher pressures and almost parallel sides.
I think he has a point there.
Greetings,
Livinus


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Plains99
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: livinus]
      #84891 - 30/08/07 12:27 AM

If you can stand the recoil and you like the Weatherby rifle then I'd go with that one. I don't believe you need that extra velocity unless you are hunting the Namibian desert or similar terrain. I don't think the Weatherby cartridge is necessary for bush hunting. I wouldn't want the cartridge because I think the recoil is vicious... but different strokes for different folks. I certainly believe that the Weatherby rifle itself is very well designed.

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xausa
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: livinus]
      #84968 - 31/08/07 12:27 AM

In my opinion the idea of a tapered case being less likely to cause extraction problems is incorrect, especially in double rifles. My Krieghoff .458 DR extracted flawlessly, but the same rifle, with .375 H&H barrels fitted, had real extraction problems.

My analysis was that the action flexed slightly at the moment of highest pressure, creating the equivalent of slightly excessive headspace, then sprang back, wedging the tapered case firmly in the chamber. I think that the perhaps counterintuitive universal experience is that parallel sided cases extract easier.

The real benefit of gradually tapered cases is in feeding. Both the .375 H&H and its progeny, the .300 H&H, feed flawlessly through Mauser type double row magazines.


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TerryR
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: xausa]
      #84982 - 31/08/07 06:04 AM

Just an aside

My brother had a 375 WBY that was custom made. A beautiful gun that he loved, but it was very light so it recoiled viciously. He took it to Africa several times. After shooting it once, his PH prceeded to steal his ammo on the first night so David had to use the PH's 375 H&H loads.

TerryR


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400NitroExpress
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Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: xausa]
      #85019 - 01/09/07 04:08 AM

Quote:

In my opinion the idea of a tapered case being less likely to cause extraction problems is incorrect, especially in double rifles.




Wrong. The British flanged nitro expresses have proven it to be true for 110 years, especially in double rifles, which don't have the extraction power that bolt rifles do. The tapered case is why they work so well.

Quote:

with .375 H&H barrels fitted, had real extraction problems.




Of course. It isn't a double rifle cartridge, and the tapered case alone can't make it one. Trying to make the case that tapered cases don't extract more easily in double rifles by using an example of a high pressure belted rimless magnum that wasn't intended for double rifles is silly.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: livinus]
      #85149 - 05/09/07 04:01 AM

Quote:

Terry Wieland in his book "Dangerous Game Rifles" points at the big difference between
the pronounced body taper of the original 375HH and almost parallel sides of the improved
version. The resulting increased case capacity he says allows higher velocity, but brings the danger of case-sticking because of higher pressures and almost parallel sides.
I think he has a point there.
Greetings,
Livinus



;
: Improved cases extract effortlessly at pressure levels that would freeze the same action when shot with the tapered case chamber. This is due to the straighter sided cases reducing bolt thrust. I've been shooting improved cases for over 35 years so have some meager experience with them. In all ctgs. and case sizes, the improved designs extract without trouble from strong bolt actions.
: For a tapered case to stick in a bolt gun, one must be loading at too high a pressure for that gun and chambering.
: Many barrels can run higher pressures with published loads, than given by the test barrel. This is why one ALWAYS starts low and 'developes' one's own data for his/her paticular rifle.
: I have never had cases stick in an improved chamber, from the .17AH to the .375 Weatherby, nor have I ever had hard bolt lift with any of them. However, get pressures a bit too high with a tapered case and the bolt will get sticky.
: For expample, my .375/06IMP runs 2,845fps with 235gr. Speers and 2,875fps, same load, with 220 Hornady Spire points. Both are long range deer loads. For thumping bigger game the same rifle runs 2,675fps with 270's and 2,470fps with 300's. Cases have been loaded over 10 times with the same loads with primer pockets still factory tight. There has never been a bolt lift stickiness and I stopped load development merely due to having established safe maximums for that rifle giving all the performance needed for any game, anywhere. When my .257 AckIMP Roberts matched a friend's .257 Wheatherby wiht factory ammo, I stopped it's load development. One cannot argue with .999", 5 shot groups at 200 meters and 25 to 35 rounds per case in longevity. Good enough for a light #3 barrel, I think.
: Point is, Improved cases give less extraction problems in bolt guns than tapered ones. The 3,485fps loads from the .257 dropped from the chamber when the extractor was removed for a test.
: I would estimate these loads were on the hairy side of 65,000PSI, yet didn't expand the primer pockets or case any 'feel' in the bolt. Good brass is manditory. Some is softer than others and causes problems with top-end loads.
: Properly loaded brass shrinks .001" from the chamber walls, which results in perfect extraction, every time. If it doens't, you've exceeded the brass's elasticity point due to pressure that's too high for THAT brass.
: If one wants slightly greater ballistics than the .375H&H provides, then buy or chamber up a .375 Ruger.
: The standard .375 has all the power necessary and then some. It need not be loaded 'to the nuts' to take care of all game. One need only be a moderately good 'game' shot. Another 150fps won't kill game any faster or deader with the same hit. It is merely more difficult to shoot due to greater recoil.
: It's been said before and will be said again. The .375H&H gained it's reputation or being satisfactory for all African game with velocities 100fps to 150fps LOWER than current factory ammo and 200fps to 250fps lower than what one can handload that round today with modern powders. Need more? I hardly think so.
: Sorry if this offends anyone - you are too easily offended - get over it, in my MOST humble opinion, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: .375 H & H or .375 Weatherby ? [Re: ozhunter]
      #87074 - 13/10/07 11:25 PM

What kind of velocity are you getting with the 350 grain Woodleighs in the 375 Weatherby?


Thanks,
Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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