DBBill
.300 member
Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Southern California, USA
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I want to put a scope on my 9.3x74R Krieghoff Classic and owuld like some advice as to the best way to go. Type and brand name of mounts? Any problems with installation?
Is it easier to use one of the European scopes with the rail?
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Chasseur
.375 member
Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
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I think the caliber is ideal for a scope.
Question: does your Merkel have precut (what do you call these) "gaps" "holes" for scope mounts? Most continental model SxS double rifles have little removable areas on the quarter rib where a scope can be mounted (this makes it much easier and cheaper than having gunsmith cut into the rib). Your choices are for claw and rail mount, or a EAW style pivot mount. I prefer pivot mounts (I have one on my 9.3 SxS by Chapuis), there are much cheaper and you can use different ring sizes and use whatever type of scope you want. You can have it done by JJ at Champlin, or New England Custom Gun (they import them from EAW, so you can buy them and have someone else do it), runs arround 300-400. Claw mounts are about $600 or so. Rail scopes by Zeiss or Kahles are also more expensive, so they also add to the cost.
Now for the eternal question: do scope effect regulation?
In my limited experience (one rifle) mine was not regulated for a scope. But I've found with a light scope regulation is not really affected (some "stacking" of barrel groups, ie one over the other rather than side by side) the groups remain the same, as far as I have tested to 100 yards. I have a 1.5-5 Leupold Var-III and a Burris 4X compact and they both work well with the pivot, totally detachable, keeping their zero.
Hope this helps!
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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli
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ThomasEdwards
.300 member
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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chasseur,
...i spoke to both jj (champlin) and mark (necg) at the recent sci convention in reno...both seem quite competent insofar as attaching claw/eaw mounts on a double...
...i have an o/u with a very thin top-rib, which, presumably, would be required to be 'cut out' in order to attach the scope mount...
...would this be advisable (the rifle is .05 moa at 60 metres with the fixed sights)?...would jj (trained in claw mounts and barrel regulation) or mark be the preferred gunsmith for this particular procedure?...
...thanks for your thoughts...
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Chasseur
.375 member
Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
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Thomas,
I think they are both excellent smiths. Just because he's a double rifle guy, I'd give the nod to JJ. He's very nice on the phone so you might call him and explain your situation and see what he thinks you should do.
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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli
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mickey
.416 member
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
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Bill
Depending on your size a rail mount will allow for more adjustment front to back. The area that can hold bases is very tigh, close together, on a Double. This can cause problems with the adjustment turrets and moving the scope back far enough. If you are short this probably won't be a problem.
The Down size of the rail mounts is the larger, usually 30mm, scopes that they come with. I think the Leupold 1.5x5 is perfect for a 9.3, if it will move far enough to the rear for you.
I have a 1.5x6 Ziess on rail on a 9.3x74R. It is a wonderful scope but it is quite a bit bigger than the Leupold.
I hope, for your sakes Ray doesn't see this or he will stringhalter and keehaul you. Or something else bad. 
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Lovu Zdar
Mick
A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.
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nopride2
.300 member
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
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When I'm thinking of mounting a scope on a double rifle I get the weights of the scope and rings. I then cut a lead weight to match. I attach the lead where the scope would mount with rubber and hose clamps. It requires a little cutting of the lead to see the sights. Undoing the whole thing to reload is a pain in the butt. Fire 4 to 6 pairs, and you will know if reregulation will be required.
Dave
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luv2safari
.400 member
Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States
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The Leupold 1.5x5 is a wonderful scope, but very short. I have one on my 375 and had a hard time finding enough length to adjust it even on a magazine rifle.
Guess what...the Leupold 2x7 (lesser quality, but sturdy!) is about a 1.6x6.3 or so in reality, and has more eye relief than the VXIII 1.5x5. I had one on the 375, but thought I needed something different, an excuse to buy a new toy with some gambling winnings. I think I liked the 2x7 better.
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Hunt with Class and Classics
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atkinson6
.375 member
Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
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Anyone who would scope a double rifle would no doubt molest their sister, rape and burn villages of Irishmen, and chase rabbits and howl at the moon!  
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DUGABOY1
.400 member
Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
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In reply to:
Anyone who would scope a double rifle would no doubt molest their sister, rape and burn villages of Irishmen, and chase rabbits and howl at the moon!
We told ya Ray'd git cha! 
Don't worry about Ray, he howls at the moon on a regular basis, himself, and he's already eaten all the jack rabbits in the Big Bend of Texas, and moved to Idaho, where he can be seen chaseing the little cottontails there at night! Folks in Filer just say "There's that crazy old Texan, chaseing rabbits again!"
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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"
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NE450No2
.375 member
Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
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I have a 2.5x8 Leupold with the heavy duplex on my Chapuis 9,3 double. At 2.5x I have plenty field of view for close range shots and I like having 8x for certain conditions. For example when hunting animals that tend to travel in groups the higher magnification allows you to pick out the correct animal and keep the crosshairs on him until you have a clear shot. This is a must on turkeys as they are allways moving around and you can "beard shop" and be ready to shoot when the big one is clear. The 2.5x8 is also better in dim light than a straight tube scope.
I am also going to mount a 2.5-10x50 Ziess with illuminated reticle. I will use this scope for stand sitting, hunting over bait or at night. That is one advantage of having QD mounts, you can have 2 scopes sighted in and ready to go.
Most of the game I have killed with this rifle has been with iron sights, but for some hunts a scope is necessary.
My 9,3 double with a scope still handles like a well fitting 410 shotgun. The scope is mounted low to the bbls and "mounts" perfectly, much better than any other rifle I have handled.
A scope on a 9,3x74R double moves it into the "All Round" medium rifle catagory. Most of us just plain hit game better with a scope at ranges past 75 yards.
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ThomasEdwards
.300 member
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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ray,
...appreciate your thoughtful and informed posts...
...does this mean you would not mount a scope on a double?...
...how about an o/u 9.3 that also sports a pair of 20 gauge smooth bores, and that is intended as an 'all around' hunting set (the only dg that i would ever hunt would be cape...mostly boars, stag, kudu, orxy, zebra and upland birds)...
...thanks for your advice...
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nopride2
.300 member
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
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Ray
You haven't seen my sister. I haven't been to Ireland, but their on my list. Rabbits and the moon. don't knock it till you tried it.
The bigger the recoil, the more potential problems with a scope. Worst case I've seen was a rib ripped half off on an English .450. Heavy scope, big recoil, inertia = disaster. Secondly, as a stopping rifle, the scope is a poor choice. Now I'm going to part company with you. The recoil of a 9.3 or 375 flanged is not high enough to cause problems with a scope or good mounting system. These rifles or lesser clalibers are not going to be used as stoppers. The relatively high velocity and flat trajectory of these cartridges put then in the scope sighted class.
Dave
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luv2safari
.400 member
Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States
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Tom,
I scope all three of my 9,3x74r's. I use Leupold 2x7 's or 1x4's and have no problems, whatever. The leupolds have the long and forgiving eye relief that I feel is so important in a rifle that will be used for snap shots about as much as slow, calculated shooting. They are nice and light weight, also. I think that VXIII 2.5x8 would be about ideal.
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Hunt with Class and Classics
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luv2safari
.400 member
Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States
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Ray,
Guilty on all three counts.
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Hunt with Class and Classics
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luv2safari
.400 member
Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States
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Ooops,
Got that a bit out of order...1. Rape rabbits howling at the moon...2. Burn Irishmen...3. Chase my sister
But, guilty, none the less...  
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Hunt with Class and Classics
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ThomasEdwards
.300 member
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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luv2safari,
...thanks for responding...
...did your drillings have claw mounts/eaw?...or did you need to mount new?...any effect on barrel regulation?...cost?...
...thanks...
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luv2safari
.400 member
Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States
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I have claws on 4 and one unscoped...getting another unscoped, also. Both my cape guns are scoped in claws. The 12/8x57jr J.P. Sauer cape gun had claw bases when I got it, but the scope was long gone. Lee LeBas installed a new front base and ring, and made up a ring for the rear base. He had to mill out the rib a bit for the new front base. The gun shot the same as before...1" at 1 O'clock at 60 yards with S&B 196 gr ammo. By the way, the S&B ammo in 8x57jr and jrs, and in 9,3x74r regulate very well in my older guns FYI.
All the others had scopes already on them when I got them, and all shoot well with the flip blade. The Tribbel and Charles Daley/Sauer sidelock-sidecock both have tang peep sights, as well as blades.
The drillings seem to take to messing around with the top rib better than do cape guns from what I've seen. I think it may have to do with the fact that the RIFLE barrel is well below the two shotgun barrels, and the whole set up is extremely rigid.
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Hunt with Class and Classics
Edited by luv2safari (11/02/04 06:00 PM)
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luv2safari
.400 member
Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States
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Forgot cost...around $1,500.00 installed for good claws. I wish Leupold made a rail scope. 
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Hunt with Class and Classics
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ThomasEdwards
.300 member
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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...thanks again for relaying your experience...
...swaro is just now coming out with a railed scope for the us market...will attach to us production rifles such as the ruger rsm integral mounts...unfortunately, nothing for talley mounts yet (according to the rep at sci-reno)...competition (such as leo) will probably have to match if the market takes off...
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mickey
.416 member
Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
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At the 2003 SCI Convention I asked the Director of Development for Leupold if they had ever thought of a rail mount scope. He said that there was no market as they only get about 500 requests a year. 500 seems like a lot to me but he said they would need to make at least 5000 to make it economical.
The problem would be if they made 5000 which scope would they make? I suggested the 1.75x6 but who really knows what would sell?
I had one local gunsmith  tell me he could make a rail and use JB Weld to attach it to a scope. Maybe one of you guys ought to give it a try and report back? Don't forget to duck when you pull the trigger.
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Lovu Zdar
Mick
A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.
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ThomasEdwards
.300 member
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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...imho, a swaro 1.25-4x in no. 24 reticle on a rail mounted system may be the optimal dg scope (for dgr's of up to medium big-bores such as the various .416s)...re reliability and robustness, the swaro lifetime warranty should take care of that...
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luv2safari
.400 member
Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States
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There are two things I don't like about the European scopes...generalized...They are heavy. They have short eye relief. I think the optics are great, but I get a bit of "magnum eyebrow" from them from time to time; they tend to get me flinching, whereas the long eye relief Leupolds give me a comfort range.
The newer European scopes are now much lighter than they were a few years ago, but they have that 3" eye relief, still. I think that the US manufacturers have some way to go in puting out scopes for the type of guns we here enjoy. I don't think we matter much in their marketing plans...plans for 15x85x120's for the next generation of super, ultra, magnoriffic loudnboomer 30 cal. magnums...
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Hunt with Class and Classics
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ThomasEdwards
.300 member
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
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...fair comment...the zeiss vmv's are supposed to be the lightest scopes around, and with reputedly the best optics...but have heard complaints on the scope's ability to handle +.375 calibre recoil...
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475Guy
.400 member
Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
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Mickey, you got that wrong. You tie it to a tree and attach a looong cord to it and yank the trigger while ducking before pulling the trigger and yell, "FIRE IN THE HOLE!"  
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Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.
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atkinson6
.375 member
Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
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I suppose one could get away with scoping a O/U, they are kind of a bastard action anyway and the claws are worth more than the gun so you have automatically raised the value of the gun and emptied your pocket book at the same time....
Sorry Bruce, couldn't hep mysef, just having some fun...another snow day, cabin fever and so fourth.
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