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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40478
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Client's sighting in shots on safari ????
      #8130 - 04/02/04 11:01 AM

Saw a post by one of our resident professional hunters about seeing how a client performs during sighting in or shooting meat game.

This made me wonder, what if the sighting in or meat shooting shows the client can't shoot for nuts! What happens then? What does the PH do, or do differently?

Open to clients too but obviously it may be embarassing if you couldn't shoot, but maybe people have stories of what they have seen on group hunts or whatever.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40478
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8131 - 04/02/04 11:13 AM

I'll start with an experience of my own.

On my last safari when sighting in for some reason I developed a mental block. Note I had already done all of this before in South Africa - no problems - and on previous safaris and hunts. In New Zealand I put two bullets through the same hole (slight figure 8 from behind the target to prove it wasn't a miss) from a field position.

Also while I don't like being "tested" in front of other people it doesn't bother me much at all.

But on this time, I took up postion on an angle Landcruiser bonnet. Aimed at the target maybe 90 metres away. Got a steady hold, held the reticle on the square drawn on the target. My heartbeat was making the reticle move up and down, up and down from several inches above the mark to several below. I tried to pick the point on the up and down to shoot at the right time. Squuezing the trigger. Squeeszing the trigger. The damned thing won't go off! Check the safety. Its off. Do it again. Shift positions a bit so my pulse is in a different postion. Still my heartbeat moves it up and down.

This was getting embarassing as I was taking too long. The PH asks "Is there anything wrong?". "No" I reply.

Shift again. Eventually that damned trigger which feels really heavy goes off. About an inch high. Within a few seconds fire another shot. Less than an inch from the first.

Rifle is sighted in OK.

For no reason I think I developed a mental block. The trigger pull is OK and not heavy. It must have been "stage fright". Normally I shoot off in 3 seconds of taking postion and shoot a second shot reloading the rifle from the shoulder very quickly.


So to illustrate my question above.


If the PH thought this bloke is scared of his rifle or can't shoot or flinches (I don't else the bullets don't go in the right place ), what does he do? Or what have you heard other PHs doing?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8142 - 04/02/04 02:06 PM

A friend of mine was hunting with Eric Stockenstroom. As they were driving from the airstrip to the Camp the PH stopped and pointed at a few Guinea Hens about 100 yards away. "We need something for dinner. Why don't you shoot a couple of those?"

Bill pulled out his 300 WB and realizing this was the shooting test took careful aim and, quite by accident and offhand, shot the head off of one of the birds, .

"There," he said to the PH "I've got my dinner, now you shoot yours."

A second time. I was with a friend in Zambia and he had new 378 WB. He had been in a hurry to meet me in Lusaka and didn't have the time to sight in the new scope he had put on. He was also afraid of the rifle and the recoil. (I wasn't afraid of it but I dreaded pulling the trigger) Anyway, after 20 rounds it still wasn't on the paper, it was hard to tell with his flinch. He was also out of ammunition.

The PH whose camp we were staying at had an extra 375 he let Bob use. He was so nervous about Bob's lack of shooting ability that he removed the follower and told Bob it could only be fired single shot. The PH backed him up on every shot until he was convinced that it was the fear of the recoil that made him shoot so poorly. After a few animals the PH suddenly 'found' the follower and put it back in.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Will
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8159 - 04/02/04 05:37 PM

The poor PH's take their lives in their hands with some yahoos, including me.

Last year at the "sighting-in" demo, I shot the 10 out of the center of the one of the new "Shoot-N-C" targets, off-hand, open sights, at about 20 yards (I think it impressed me more than the PH!). A good sighting-in ceremony takes the pressure off both client and PH.

But the sighting-in ceremony may not have any relation to the pressure situation.

A few days and 'phunts later, here comes a bitch on my left front, while the PH is on my right front. I didn't hesitate to blaze away, which turned her. My PH was diplomatic but clearly upset (actually he was not as near to getting wasted as he thought). I have a definite aversion to getting stepped on by a cow. We're going at it again this year, so I guess I didn't scare him too badly, though I told him, under the same circumstances, I'd do the same again.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: mickey]
      #8163 - 04/02/04 07:19 PM

Mickey, great story!

I always reckon that the rifle check at the start of the hunt is some of the hardest shooting of the entire hunt, and I always sympathise with the client st this time. No-one likes to shoot with an audience....especially when it's an audience of strangers.

Very occasionally I get a client who simply can't shoot for shit when they arrive. When this happens, I simply make sure that we spend a few hours on the range before we go out. Let's face it, rifle shooting isn't rocket science and with a bit of good coaching most people improve very rapidly, and I've never had to spend more than 2 or 3 hours doing this. Then when we do go out hunting, I simply make sure that the client has a few real easy (and close) shots to start with. Part of being professional is never asking a client to take a shot you don't think he's capable of....... and I never do.

Very occasionally a client might ask me to shoot on report with the first animal, just to bolster their confidence.... this mostly happens when it's the son of a father & son combo, and in these cases we're often shooting the 1st animal for meat. When I do this (and it's very rare) I can do it so quickly that the shooter only hears one gunshot.... give it a try at the range with a buddy.

Zeroing: We all have our own way of doing this, but my personal way, rightly or wrongly is to bore sight the rifle at 20 yards or so first. Then take 2 shots from the same range. If it needs correcting, I make the alterations and take another shot and then repeat the process if necessary. At 20 yards you can get it shooting straight real quick. Then I just move back to 100 yards and try it again.... it's normally pretty much bang on. I find that by doing it this way, most rifles can be zeroed with between 6 and at the very most 10 shots in all. Zeroing a rifle from scratch at 100 (ish) yards just strikes me as a waste of bullets.... it can easily take 10 shots just to get it on the paper.

I had a client last year in the Selous, who had only shot this particular rifle from a benchrest, and he really battled with shooting it any other way. We spent a couple of hours at the range on the afternoon of arrival and after that he was OK. Once he got his confidence right he shot brilliantly....... Every animal he shot at he killed and the longest shot was well over 200 yards at a monster Eland which took about 3 steps after the shot and collapsed... you can't ask better than that.

Memorable lousy shots from clients would include the one who shot the horn off of a great Kudu and another who managed to shoot another Kudu in the ass from less than 20 yards .......... I'm pleased to say that we didn't lose either animal

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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iqbal
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: shakari]
      #8167 - 04/02/04 09:08 PM

Shakari you remember my friend Hoti,he and i went on a safari together to SA and during the shooting in with a 375H&H he got a nasty cut on the eyebrow with the scope.I was a bit nervous then as neither of us had handled anything bigger than a 7mm.mag. before.My first shot completely missed the board and i felt real shitty as i considered myself to be a pretty good shot.However i did well with the next two shots and that was the end of the "sighting in" as far the PH was concerned.He probably thought we were novices and there was no point in wasting any more ammo.When the very next day i shot a fallow dear at 350 yds.with a 300 WBY.mag.dropping it in its tracks he changed his mind and did not hover over my shoulder again.
Sometimes the lack of experience with an unfamiliar caliber tends to make you uncertain and you require a little practise to bolster your confidence.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: iqbal]
      #8172 - 05/02/04 02:03 AM

I recently watched a video of a guy shooting some double rifles on an African safari and during rhe sighting in he asks the PH which trigger shoots which barrel on his own double rifle.

He was going to hunt several dangerous game with it.

How to inspire confidence in the PH early on I think.

***

Personally I think it is great when the PH leaves his rifle behind as it shows a vote of confidence. But of course never on dangerous game.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Will
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Posts: 303
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8175 - 05/02/04 02:42 AM

Probably seen the same one, a Bolt-Action one, or whatever it was called. The guy has more money than sense. Has 2 new doubles he has never shot before!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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mickey
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: Will]
      #8182 - 05/02/04 04:15 AM

In reply to:

Poster: Will
Subject: Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ????..
........

The poor PH's take their lives in their hands with some yahoos, including me.

A few days and 'phunts later, here comes a bitch on my left front, while the PH is on my right front. I didn't hesitate to blaze away, which turned her. My PH was diplomatic but clearly upset (actually he was not as near to getting wasted as he thought). I have a definite aversion to getting stepped on by a cow. We're going at it again this year, so I guess I didn't scare him too badly, though I told him, under the same circumstances, I'd do the same again.





Bob Langeveld once told me that when a client told him he could shoot 1" groups at 200 yards he always replied that 'he didn't care what he could shoot at 200 yards but only what he could shoot at 2 yards'.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Will
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: mickey]
      #8183 - 05/02/04 04:20 AM

Amen, brother!

Of course, talk (mine) is cheap. I always just hope for the best.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
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Loc: South Africa
Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: iqbal]
      #8185 - 05/02/04 04:24 AM

Hi Iqbal,

I remember both him, Jaffar and the hunt very well...... it was such a pleasure to see a father & son who were such good buddies.....Both of them also shot very well and were great fun to be with. He actually told me the story of the .375 and also about your fallow buck as we sat around the African TV (campfire) one night..... Actually he told me a lot of stories, after which I really hope that you & I get to share a hunt sometime.... I KNOW it will be a lot of fun!


It actually makes a big difference if you have clients who are real riflemen, and from the stories I've heard of the kind of hunting you guys have in your home country, you need to be riflemen. I wouldn't like to climb the mountains I've been told about, let alone take the long shots you're faced with when you get to the top!....... I think I'll stick to nice, warm & flat Africa!......although on second thoughts, you're bird shooting sounds like something I'll have to experience one day.

Please would you send him my best regards when next you see him..... thanks

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: shakari]
      #8197 - 05/02/04 09:12 AM

I can sympathize with the stresses of the "test." whenever I'm at the range with my dad and his hunting partner, I'm in the presence of dozens of trophies for just about any type of shooting you can imagine.

I still pretty much suck off-hand, but in any of the "possible" field positions, I'm much better.

if you can shoot under the stress of a dozen pairs of eyes, you can shoot anywhere.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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luv2safari
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8207 - 05/02/04 12:02 PM

This one isn't about a client of mine , but goes back to when I was 13 and on a caribou & moose hunt in Northern BC, up the Sukunka River, East of Chetwind.

After a long day's ride from the trail head to camp we got out our rifles and dried them off. The guide, Otto Elden, an elf of an old German woodsman, sized us up, my dad and me. I had my FN action 7mm Wby/3-9 Leupold, and my dad had his old Win Mdl 70, '06/Weaver K4...the only rifle he ever owned or used all his life.

The head Cree Indian scout, Dolphus Callieu, looked at us and let out a 'Humph...pretty handle on that gun", my Weatherby.
"can you shoot?" A target was set up about 80 yards down river, the farthest open area around.

My dad started off with the first shot. We walked down to the target and found he had hit 1 1/2" high, just right! It was my turn, and I let fly with my shot. We walked down again. Upon looking at the target Dolphus grew uneasy and said "you missed whole target...thought you could shoot"! I skulked back to camp to tend to my tender young ego...I just couldn't have missed the whole target, but there was the proof.

Later at the campfire Otto picked up the target; a wry smile overtook his face, and he handed the target to Dolphus. Dolphus almost fell into the fire after inspecting the target and said "sumofabeech...same hole!" I was vindicated..........

The second day out on the hunt my dad and I shot two very nice woodland caribou right together at 300 yards. Dolphus counted to three and we squeezed off a fraction of a second apart. Two caribou lurched, ran a few yards and it was over.
Not one for wasting words, Dolphus said "OK, you can shoot".

Then, in a burst of prose Dolphus opened up and asked if we knew what a moose was. He went on to explain..."them guys what was going out when you came in...them Texans...them guys couldn't shoot 'n didn't know what a moose was!" He then clammed up. Back at camp I asked Otto what Dolphus was getting at, about "them Texans"? Otto doubled over in laughter and grabbed my arm, led me about 40 yards off into the alder and showed me a dead horse. Seems that one of "them Texans" had shot it out from under Dolphus the morning before we arrived in camp...hollering to all within earshot that he had gotten his moose...!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8212 - 05/02/04 01:16 PM

In 2002 a former co-worker went with me on a plains game hunt in RSA. This was his 1st Safari. About a year before the trip, he asked me what calibre I was taking, and I told him my 375 Ackley Imp., not because it's needed, but just because I like it so much. He asked what I thought he should take, and I asked him which rifle he shoots best. He said his .308 Winchester Mod.70. I told him to take it, and stoke it up with 180 grain premium loadings. Well, 3 months before we leave for the hunt, he called to tell me he bought a .375 H&H because other hunting buddies of his(who've never hunted in Africa) told him that they heard the game was sooooo tough that he needed a 375. I offered to go out to the range with him on several occassions, and he declined, always having one excuse or another. When we arrived in RSA and he went to sight in he couldn't keep his shots with 12 inches of each other-from a bench rest. His P.H. pretended to fiddle around with the scope and mounts a bit, and then handed him the rifle telling him he already chambered a round, and it was ready to go. In reality, he just chambered a spent case. As the trigger was pulled, there was the audible click, while my friends head was pulled about 6 inches away from the stock. One hell of a flinch! The P.H. told him straight up that he could see my friend was afraid of the gun and he wouldn't allow him to hunt with it. His P.H. then got a 7X57 with 175 grain Nosler handloads and asked him to try it. He shot 3 times, and all 3 shots were dead center, and 2 inches high. He used that rifle to take 10 animals with a total of 11 shots, including Eland and Zebra. By the way, over sundowners the evening of the sight in session, my friend sold me his, by that time much hated, Model 70 Classic Stainless with a 1.75X6 Leupold for $500.00. Maybe next time he'll listen.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #8214 - 05/02/04 01:31 PM

Talk about not getting a trigger to let go!

Shooting the second trigger on my double .450 on the range is damned hard.

I press, press, press, pull, pull, pull - and the damned thing still doesn't go off.

Checked it by chambering a fired round and tugged hard, click!

So the trigger does work. But is quite heavy.

Shooting offhand I didn't notice it but using a rest under the forhand and shooting and building up handloads it is very noticeable as I try for perfection on sighting when sighting in or handloads to expose any deficiencies in the loads, groups or sighting.

Yes I have shot the double more just haven't finished yet.


***

Will

the video is "Double Barreled Zambezi Safari" with Andy Samuels. I bought it off Mark Young when he flogged off all his hunting videos.

Not a bad video I guess, enjoyable enough, but how some dude could buy two doubles, and take them to Africa to hunt elephant and buffalo having never shot them is beyond belief.

But then again Robert Ruark admits to the same, having I believe, never even fired a rifle before, only shotguns, before his infamous East African safari and subsequent book.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DBBill
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8227 - 05/02/04 03:42 PM

I've been a competitive shotgun shooter most of my adult life and have literally traveled around the world shooting with various teams but nothing made me as nervous as that first shot on paper, in front of the PH and trackers, to check zero.

I've noticed that as soon as you reach for your rifle the PH is checking out how you handle it, do you know how it works, are you afraid of it, are you safe with it, etc.

On my 2nd safari we checked it on paper and went out to shoot some impala for bait. Just before dusk we spotted some impala near the road and as the PH slowed down he told me step out and shoot one well I stepped out before the truck was fully stopped and slid on some gravel causing me to slide, as gracefully as a pregnant cow, down into the ditch....the impala took their leave. I got up as gracefully as I could and walked across the road to take a look....I didn't want to get back into the truck just yet. As luck would have it, just as I crossed the road, a small ram walked out from behind a bush with a "where did everyone go" look on his face. I shot him off-hand at about 75 yards and as he dropped a warthog ran out from a hole to my right-front and as I swung on him the PH yelled shoot. My shot, at about 50 yards, knocked him on his nose as he came to a skidding stop.

I felt like blowing down the barrel --- redemption is sweet.

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shakari
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: Will]
      #8229 - 05/02/04 03:42 PM

I guess we get at least one or two clients every year who pitch up with brand new-never been shot rifles....and a fair percentage of them have incorrectly fitted scopes or the wrong scope mounts.....and that includes for DG.

On the other hand most, know their rifles and shoot them bloody well. We had a group of 4 Brit hunters last year who hunted 2x1 in RSA and then onto Tanzania and in 16 days hunting and almost 40 animals they all got 1 shot kills and no misses at all.....but they all got together at least once a week for regular target practice.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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quigleysharps
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: shakari]
      #8230 - 05/02/04 04:09 PM

Just want to give all of you PH guys credit for what you all have to put up with in your line of work. I couldn't do it. I'm afraid I'd have to tell some of them to go elsewhere. I know quite a few myself that don't have any business hunting or even owning a firearm. It's kinda scary to think that a guy that can't hit a bull in the a$$ at 50yds.would attempt hunting game in Africa. I never cease to be amazed.

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shakari
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: quigleysharps]
      #8250 - 06/02/04 04:19 AM

Quigley....... the guy just really suffers from nerves. If he goes to the rifle range in the UK he'll print his shots at 200 yards all day, but just can't get it together on African game.

......And of the course, the job has some great benefits . If money or short working hours were my motivation, I'd find another job, but I love what I do, and wouldn't give it up for the world.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: shakari]
      #8295 - 06/02/04 12:36 PM

I once saw a guy show up in camp bragging about how well he shot. That afternoon we went out to the range to check for zero, and he was all over the place. He just couldn't get the darn thing to respond to the scope adjustments he was making. The P.H. took a look at his rifle and started rolling around on the ground laughing. The scope was mounted 90 degrees off, so when he thought he was changing the windage, he was adding or subtracting elevation and vise versa.

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mickey
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #8313 - 06/02/04 02:45 PM

The best way to screw somebody up is to tell everyone that he is the best shot you have ever seen and is a guaranteed one shot wonder. You'll jinx hin for sure.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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luv2safari
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: mickey]
      #8327 - 06/02/04 04:03 PM

That happened to me last June in Limpopo Province. My partner touted my shooting. After six days, I was convinced the game was bullet proof or I had brought blanks.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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475Guy
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Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: NitroX]
      #8491 - 08/02/04 05:18 PM

Even though this has nothing to do with sighting in on an African trip, I think it is relevant to the thread. At my toy emporium, I see a lot of guys mis-handle the guns in the shop. Improper handling of a boltgun by taking it off the shoulder to work the bolt, never looking in the chamber to do the safety check, and last but not least, pointing in the general direction of people even though the rifle isn't loaded. One clown was fiddling around and pointed a rifle dead at my face and I ducked, pulled my Glock 21 out and pointed it at him. His face went white and stammered that it wasn't loaded. I told him that I didn't know it was unloaded and that I was trained to pop a cap at somebody pointing a gun at me.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1412
Loc: United States
Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: 475Guy]
      #8496 - 08/02/04 05:53 PM

475GUY,,I used to moor my boat at Isleton...Perry's Marina. Is it/he still there. What about the combination Mexican/Chinese restaurant?? Do you still have an olive festival...crawfish festival??

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Hunt with Class and Classics

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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Client's sighting in shots on safari ???? [Re: 475Guy]
      #8515 - 09/02/04 02:19 AM

Although your customers action was inexcuseable, I feel your reaction was just as bad. He may have just been ignorant & stupid (obviously), but you know better. What's one of the major gun safety rules-Never point your gun at something unless you intend to kill it. Accidents happen. What if your Glock had an accidental discharge? It sounds just like gang wars-they did it to us, so we'll do it to them. Of course, I wasn't in your position, but I think if a customer pointed a rifle at me like that, I'd like to think I'd grab the muzzle end of the barrel, direct it to the side, and in no uncertain terms advise the idiot that he's an A Hole.

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