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gunsmith
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Loc: USA
William Douglass DRs
      #80116 - 08/06/07 12:07 AM

About William Douglas double Rifles.
William Douglas sold a bunch of actions to Cape Outfitters in the 1990's. Some of them were made by private individuals or unknowing gunsmiths into double rifles, they were shotgun actions,period. William Douglas never made a double rifle.Only shotguns. They will not continually take the pounding of the 470, or any other high pressure rifle round. They have no 3rd lock. And the Mono block is too thin for the cartridge. You may fire 10 shots, but number 11 is going to be your last.Period.Maybe you will live, probibly not. If you sell this peice of crap, get ready to be sued. They were made in Holland, barrels made in Italy, and assembled in the U.S.A. with no proofs. If there are proofs, someone else stamped them in the U.S.
Call Rigby and they will tell you the same thing, or call Ken Owen, in Tennessee.

Edited by NitroX (12/05/08 12:17 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Firearms For Sale in Australia [Re: gunsmith]
      #80122 - 08/06/07 02:05 AM


gunsmith

I know 2 guns in Australia that have done
a fair amount of shooting and are still on the face.

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RLI
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Re: Firearms For Sale in Australia [Re: gunsmith]
      #80141 - 08/06/07 09:06 AM

I do not see how you can blame William Douglass for faults of rifles made up on surplus actions by people who who have no idea how to make a double rifle!

Cape Outfitters imported William Douglass rifles into the US from England ,They were built in England and London Proofed.

WD made shotguns and double rifles 470NE & 500NE

The 470 is a LOW pressure round

The WD has Purdey style hidden third bite

Mono Block is NOT to thin, The WD has passed rigorous proof testing in London, My WD has over 250 rounds thru it with no problems, I know of others 2 in Australia, 1 in US , 1 in South Africa with no problems

The action was CNC machined in Holland, Barrels from Germany, The WD was built and regulated in England

The William Douglass is sound quality working rifle.

I would presume you have never owned a WD let alone ANY double and you seem to be pushing the Mexican Rigby's . Please do a bit more research before going off half cocked!

RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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Ripp
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Re: Firearms For Sale in Australia [Re: RLI]
      #80207 - 09/06/07 04:27 AM

I would have to agree with several items--first of all, the .470 is definetly a low pressure cartidge,,anyone who has done anything with doubles knows this.

Secondly, the new Rigby's are no where near the Rigby's of old. The new ones are built on a Merkel action and custom work in California--and sold at a price 3 times the Merkel--granted there are custom features done on the Rigby's but certainly not up to par of what they once were--not saying anything is bad with the Merkel, I am saying based on that they are certainly not worth the price them are being offered at.
Ripp

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500Nitro
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Re: Firearms For Sale in Australia [Re: gunsmith]
      #80208 - 09/06/07 04:34 AM

,

Edited by 500Nitro (09/06/07 04:39 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80209 - 09/06/07 04:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

About William Douglas double Rifles.
William Douglas sold a bunch of actions to Cape Outfitters in the 1990's. Some of them were made by private individuals or unknowing gunsmiths into double rifles, they were shotgun actions,period. William Douglas never made a double rifle.Only shotguns. They will not continually take the pounding of the 470, or any other high pressure rifle round. They have no 3rd lock. And the Mono block is too thin for the cartridge. You may fire 10 shots, but number 11 is going to be your last.Period.Maybe you will live, probibly not. If you sell this peice of crap, get ready to be sued. They were made in Holland, barrels made in Italy, and assembled in the U.S.A. with no proofs. If there are proofs, someone else stamped them in the U.S.
Call Rigby and they will tell you the same thing, or call Ken Owen, in Tennessee.



gunsmith

Now I have a bit more time, I'll add to my post above.

Firstly, RLI is spot on.


Except my gun has had far more than 250 rounds through it
and is still going strong. I know it's not a Holland, Purdey, Webley but it shoots as well as any of my other 20+ DR's (in fact better) and it is easy to carry, good to shoot and works 100% every time.


The guns were made for Cape Outfitters to provide a low cost 470 DR for an expanding US Market - in my view a sound commercial decision. If they are that crap, then Cape Outfitters would have been sued a long time ago as the US is the most litigious society, far more than any other.


If I sell you my gun, you'd have eff all chance of suing me
so stick that up your ass and suck it - or better still, pull the [Email]f@#king[/Email] trigger with a round in the chamber - listening to your post, your brains will probably go first as they are in your arse.


If you are going to get people to call other so called "experts", then at least use someone with credibility.

Rigby USA is NOT credible - anybody stupid enough to buy a name and put it on a Merkel action and expect people to pay over the odds for it.........or at least more than a few.

And by the way the finish of the guns by USA Rigby leaves a bit to be desired.

Go back to the rock you crawled out from under and stay there.


Apologise to other posters for the rant !

Edited by NitroX (12/05/08 12:22 AM)

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gunsmith
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #104650 - 10/05/08 01:34 AM

The guns that I was familiar with were originally 20 guage acions,sold by Cape Outfitters. They had no 3rd hidden lug, and only the Purdey double bite. These were chambered in 450 no.2 nitro express, and one bulged the chamber on the 2nd shot. The other one went off face in 6 rounds. I contacted Mr.Sargent from William Douglass, and he said he had not made any double rifles,that they were built from kits, and he had no control over what people chambered them for.
They were to be in 45/70 at the most.
Cape Outfitters went out of bussiness years ago, so no one is suing them.(the owner died)
I just left you guys know about the dangers of these guns as I was informed. I am not a As....e. And my brains are in my head proper.
I just wanted to keep someone safe. And pass the information that I had on.

Edited by NitroX (12/05/08 12:20 AM)

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RLI
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: gunsmith]
      #104682 - 10/05/08 05:46 PM

You state that you contacted Mr Sargeant of "William Douglass A Sons, Gunmakers" and he said he never made double rifles only made kits, well I have spoken to Mr Daniel Sargeant about his rifles and they were......

MADE IN ENGLAND and PROOFED AT THE LONDON PROOF HOUSE and this can be verified by contacting the Proof House, I even have a SIGHTING IN TARGET ,SIGNED BY MR SARGEANT!!! THE AMMO USED WAS FEDERAL .470NE and rifles coming into the US must have the importers name on them which these do (CAPE OUTFITTERS) and "kits" do not have importers names on them.

Even Blue Book list them as imported rifles, enough said.

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

Edited by NitroX (12/05/08 12:20 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: RLI]
      #104759 - 12/05/08 12:17 AM

I've pruned the thread and moved the discussion to the Double Rifle forum discussion.

The Classified Ads forum is for sellers and buyers and discussions regarding selling and buying those goods etc.

Better place for this discussion is here.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: gunsmith]
      #104773 - 12/05/08 02:19 AM

Quote:

About William Douglas double Rifles.
William Douglas sold a bunch of actions to Cape Outfitters in the 1990's. Some of them were made by private individuals or unknowing gunsmiths into double rifles, they were shotgun actions,period. William Douglas never made a double rifle.Only shotguns. They will not continually take the pounding of the 470, or any other high pressure rifle round. They have no 3rd lock. And the Mono block is too thin for the cartridge. You may fire 10 shots, but number 11 is going to be your last.Period.Maybe you will live, probibly not. If you sell this peice of crap, get ready to be sued. They were made in Holland, barrels made in Italy, and assembled in the U.S.A. with no proofs. If there are proofs, someone else stamped them in the U.S.
Call Rigby and they will tell you the same thing, or call Ken Owen, in Tennessee.



I've heard some BS in my time but this takes the cake!

This is a fine example of some of the misinformed people on websites who post hearsay as fact, when it is simply, "I got this from a guy who had a brother, who heard it from his mother-in-law..."

The screen name of this guy says valumes! The 470NE , a high pressure round??????????? Doesn't sound like much of a gunsmith to me!

In the first place many companies sell shotgun actions to the home hobbist! that doesn't make them liable for what some plumber, who calls himself a GUNSMITH, does with that action!

William Douglas double rifles are well made working double rifles, and are as safe as any other name brand double to use with proper ammo!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: gunsmith]
      #104776 - 12/05/08 02:48 AM

Quote:

About William Douglas double Rifles.
William Douglas sold a bunch of actions to Cape Outfitters in the 1990's. Some of them were made by private individuals or unknowing gunsmiths into double rifles, they were shotgun actions,period. William Douglas never made a double rifle.Only shotguns. They will not continually take the pounding of the 470, or any other high pressure rifle round. They have no 3rd lock. And the Mono block is too thin for the cartridge. You may fire 10 shots, but number 11 is going to be your last.Period.Maybe you will live, probibly not. If you sell this peice of crap, get ready to be sued. They were made in Holland, barrels made in Italy, and assembled in the U.S.A. with no proofs. If there are proofs, someone else stamped them in the U.S.
Call Rigby and they will tell you the same thing, or call Ken Owen, in Tennessee.




Well mine has been shot a fair bit, it is very accurate - and I have not known one that wasn't, it is light, well balanced and easy to carry and doesn't have any of the BS you have above.

I couldn't give a rats arse if the barrels were made in Timuktu, as long as they are good barrels. As as to your references to Holland, Italy, well I think they have a long, long history of making fine firearms - especially barrels -
so in my view that could be seen as a positive.

BTW, mine has proof marks - UK one's.

And if you want to sue me, go ahead, we don't have fucked up laws in this country like you do in the US so you wouldn't get very far. And finally, when I buy a gun, it gets the once over check from the gunsmith and if anything needs doing, it gets done then and there, before I go and stand in front of dangerous game.

And finally, if or when I sell a gun, Unlike some US sellers, I tell the potential buyer of ALL the pros and cons that I know of so no hidden agendas or issues come back to bite me - or the buyer.

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dnovo
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #104777 - 12/05/08 02:52 AM


I've heard some BS in my time but this takes the cake!

Na, that's nothing!

Ahem, mi, mi, la, la, "I heard it from a friend who, had from a friend who, had it from a friend you've been fooling around " (REO SPEEDWAGON) Great singing voice, eh?

That's how I get my reliable information, rumor, innuendo, etc. Or, at a forum on the Net, where rumors ran rampant, as does bullshit. Keep your sense of humor well in hand, and view everything with a jaundiced eye, and you will do just fine. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: dnovo]
      #104786 - 12/05/08 03:59 AM

Quote:


I've heard some BS in my time but this takes the cake!

Na, that's nothing!

Ahem, mi, mi, la, la, "I heard it from a friend who, had from a friend who, had it from a friend you've been fooling around " (REO SPEEDWAGON) Great singing voice, eh?

That's how I get my reliable information, rumor, innuendo, etc. Or, at a forum on the Net, where rumors ran rampant, as does bullshit. Keep your sense of humor well in hand, and view everything with a jaundiced eye, and you will do just fine. Dave




...............................HUH????????????????????

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mickey
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: dnovo]
      #104787 - 12/05/08 04:07 AM

i think we are talking about two different things here.

First is a 'Kit' gun sold by Cape Outfitters. The second is a complete DR assembled and proofed in England. For want of a better metaphor a Ford pickup and a homemade wagon.

I have looked at a few WD DRs and have never found anything to complain about. I have two friends who own and shoot them regularly and they are happy as Pigs in Sh#t with them. They are on the light side but that is a positive to me.

Cape Outfitters was 'buyer beware' company. They re stamped proof marks on rifles and converted many BP rifles in Europe with forged proof marks to be sold in the US as NE rifles. That is no secret amongst those that have seen these rifles.

I would suspect that what they sold was substandard and add in an amateur DR gunsmith you are asking for trouble.

Don't blame Ford if you build a truck out of parts from the wrecking yard and it doesn't run right.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: mickey]
      #104793 - 12/05/08 04:26 AM

Mickey,

Thanks for the clarifying information.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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gunsmith
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: NitroX]
      #151037 - 18/01/10 04:17 PM

The William Douglass rifles that I had been talking about, were chambered in 450 no.2 Nitro Express. It turns out that the chambering reamer that was furnished by the owner to me was cut incorrectly, short in the neck area by many thousands of an inch. This caused a HUGE spike in pressure,before the bullet could be released to go down the bore. Did not notice this when i fired the gun, only on checking the fired brass was this found. If anyone has one of these guns, marked William Douglass,London on the bottom, with an Elepahant on one side and a Cape buffalo on the other, in silver plates inlayed into the sides, these guns need re,reamed with a good reamer.
I just said what i was told by William Douglas, and Mr.Sargent about the guns, as I wanted him to know about the problem of a potential problem with a firearm that had his companies name on it. He told me that he only made shotguns now, or so I was led to beleive. I may be mistaken, and not understood him correctly. He said the kits were made for shotguns, not double rifles. I guess I did not convay that well in the previous post.
I am sure that a William Douglass firearm, made by the company is a fine firearm, and well capable of handling any load recommended for it. My concern is the Kits that were sold by Cape Outfitters, that were of the type that I had delt with. No offence was intended to Mr.Sargent, the Wiilliam Douglas Company, or any one who owns one of these original fine firearms.


The guns were falsely marked anyway, and stamped with British Proof Marks,or so I was told, by the person that I made the guns for.He claimed to have the O.K.from the British Government to do this. I cut out the association with him when I found this out, as it is fraud, pure and simple, and I did not want any part of it.
When these guns were fired, it almost took you off your feet, and dislocated a friend of mines neck,sending him to the chiropractor,ater it was fired. It sent a 500 grain bullet out at 2700 fps. I thought this was an overload by Superior Ammo, and called them. I owe them an apology.
Yes, I am a gunsmith, and a very good one. But we all can get snookered time to time.
I just wanted to relay a warning on these 2 guns.
Oh By the way, I must have done the lock well. No doubling even at that recoil level.

Edited by gunsmith (18/01/10 04:42 PM)

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mickey
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: gunsmith]
      #151091 - 19/01/10 05:18 AM

It sounds like you got screwed by Cape Outfitters. Don't feel too bad you are only one of many. Changing proof marks and adding them was a favorite ploy of theirs. Making up crap and selling it as original was also common.

We are all better off now that this Outfit is history.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: gunsmith]
      #152398 - 01/02/10 03:57 AM

Quote:

The William Douglass rifles that I had been talking about, were chambered in 450 no.2 Nitro Express. It turns out that the chambering reamer that was furnished by the owner to me was cut incorrectly, short in the neck area by many thousands of an inch. This caused a HUGE spike in pressure,before the bullet could be released to go down the bore. Did not notice this when i fired the gun, only on checking the fired brass was this found.



If these rifles were supposed to be William Douglas double rifles why were you chambering them? If you were building them I don't understand why you would call and blaim William Douglas for their poor quality. Sounds like you simply built some of these so-called kits and are now trying to cover your orface in case someone is hurt by one of these screw-ups! Any gunsmith worth his salt would know that the only way to get legal proof marks for England is from an Engalnd proof house!

When I smell fish, I usually look close by, not on the other side of the sea!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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450_366
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #152411 - 01/02/10 06:35 AM

Why say something now 2,5 years later, wasnt it found out before?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Bill_Cooley
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: 450_366]
      #152435 - 01/02/10 01:19 PM

I will make a great personal sacrifice and take possession of all of the William Douglas double rifles. It is the only humane thing to do. Please send me all those nasty dangerous William Douglas double rifles so I can save your life. Please send large amounts of ammo so we can do torture testing and perhaps some money so they can be tested in the field. I feel this is the least I can do for my fellow members of this forum.
Bill

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500Nitro
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Re: William Douglass DRs [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #152436 - 01/02/10 01:21 PM

Bill

You have got to be joking. Mine shoots superbly and would be one of the last guns I sold. LOL, good effort though.

Edited by 500Nitro (01/02/10 01:25 PM)

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