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NitroXAdministrator
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Wise Old Men of Africa
      #7551 - 27/01/04 05:48 PM

I always like to know the names of the African staff and especially the hunting staff.

When I was last in Zimbabwe we ended up having new staff and I asked the PH for the name of the tracker and game scout.

He told me the name of the tracker whom he had been told, but we picked up the game scout some kilometres away from his camp.

The PH said he did not know the name of the game scout but called him "Old Man" in the local language.

Now that would be an insult or at least upsetting used in the West. But there it was an honorific. A respectful term used by a younger man to an older man.

It is interesting the differences between the West and more traditional cultures and interesting perhaps why the differences exist.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bakes
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #7555 - 27/01/04 06:51 PM

I call my Dad "old man" all the time, actually I call him "old Bastard" but it close enough

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mickey
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #7557 - 27/01/04 07:38 PM

Oom Baas. A very great compliment. Unless you are 25.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #7564 - 28/01/04 02:35 AM

In my opinion, the nicest compliment one of age can hear is, "I don't know, ask the old man!" Especially when you are 67 yrs old like me! My youngest son (40 yrs old) rarely calls me anything other than "OLD MAN"

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Trex
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #7575 - 28/01/04 08:34 AM

When I taught in Africa the term "Old Man" in Swahili was a very respected title. Any time a younger person showed an older person respect it was looked on with favor. It is a pitty that in our "Western" culture we still do not have this understanding.

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mickey
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: Trex]
      #7593 - 28/01/04 01:26 PM

In reply to:

Poster: Trex
Subject: Re: Wise Old Men of Africa

When I taught in Africa the term "Old Man" in Swahili was a very respected title. Any time a younger person showed an older person respect it was looked on with favor. It is a pitty that in our "Western" culture we still do not have this understanding.




The older I get the more I believe this is true.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Will
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: mickey]
      #7627 - 28/01/04 06:30 PM

I'm just glad I made it to the old man stage. Now if someday they start calling me "old, old man," that would be just peachy.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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iqbal
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #7655 - 29/01/04 04:28 AM

John,you are right about the cultural difference especially regarding the way you address your elders or your father.In the East and particularly in the sub-continent you would not dare to call your father "old man"at least not to his face.Around here we still stand up when our father enters the room and dare not speak to him in a loud tone,not that he is a tyrant or that we are afraid of him but because of the respect that we have for him for what we are today is because of him.Similarly uncles and other elders are treated in the same manner.
The West may be far more advanced and may have a lot of good points but as far as respect to elders and family values are concerned it has a lot to learn from the East.

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shakari
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: iqbal]
      #7659 - 29/01/04 04:44 AM

Iqbal,

I completely agree with you...... the lack of respect in the western world (and especially in the UK) for one's elders is a disgrace.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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DUGABOY1
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: iqbal]
      #8596 - 10/02/04 06:37 AM

Iqbal, and NitroX, I think, for the most part, you are very correct in your opinion of the youth of the west, but all the West is not the same, any more than the East. In parts of the West, some of the things, seen, as disrespectful, by those who do not understand, are not disrespectful at all! The thing about a son calling his father "OLD MAN", in Texas, is not disrespectful at all, but a term of endearment. This is a Texas Rancher's expression, and is simply addressing the father as the "ELDER" of the family, and shows respect for his life experiences, exactly like Iqbal's custom, just different words are used! It is not necessarily accepted in other parts of the west,especially in the USA, as we are a diverse scociety, of immigrants. Eventhough Austrailia is mostly transplant, most were British subjects, but in the USA we are a melting pot of the whole world, so there is no ONE set of rules of deportment, that applies to all, other than the rule of law!

You see, just like in your countries, there are different customs in different parts, and in different religions that are not ubnderstood well by the others, in some case, and in MOST cases by those from other countries. The fact that these things are not understood by everyone, does not make them bad, just different!

I mean no disrespect to you, or anyone here, but painting a society as diverse as that of the USA, with one brush stroke, all the same color, is just as disrespectful of something you do not understand, as It would be for me to put down your customs, because I do not understand them!

I do agree, we are allowed more individual diversity in our opinions of what is right or wrong, or insulting, or polite, than some countries, but we have a thousand religions, and ethnic customs in this country, and all are tollerated, as personal customs, and they are held to the same value for them, as mine are to me! IOW, what is bad in one scociety, is acceptable in another, and vice-versa. That is known as freedom,

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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iqbal
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #8645 - 11/02/04 02:21 AM

DUGABOYI,i understand what you are saying,maybe its just a question of semantics or maybe a term used in fondness,if so its all fine,but the moment you use the term "old man"in a deragatory manner for your father it indicates not only lack of respect but also lack of upbringing.What maybe right or not so bad in one society or culture might just be viewed as deragatory in another society,i agree with you there,after all as someone mentioned its a term of respect in Swahili.

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atkinson6
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: iqbal]
      #8660 - 11/02/04 03:50 AM

I am pretty well known in Tanzania/Zim and other countries and by lot of the gamescouts, all of the indigenous species...I have been known as "Babu" for many years..The terms means grandfather and it is always used with respect...

I too believe in respect for elders, and always have as that is what I was taught and to do otherwise would have netted me a good licken with a nylon rope, and for that I was blessed,

HOWEVER, I still belive respect is earned and not just a given..I know a lot of folks my age, well make that a few as most are dead or dying, that do not deserve respect, rather a good a-- kicking would surfice....

I can say that now, I earned the right, but I would not have said so 50 years ago or even 20 for that matter.

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: atkinson6]
      #8702 - 11/02/04 09:29 AM

great post Ray... respect must be earned for sure, but with the elderly (like yourself ), I find it quite appropriate to a) give them the benefit of the doubt and b) assume they are worthy of respect until they prove undoubtedly otherwise.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: atkinson6]
      #8721 - 11/02/04 10:36 AM

Ray, I'm in awe! My knickname in Zulu means "a big man that makes a truck sag".

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: atkinson6]
      #8723 - 11/02/04 10:46 AM

In reply to:

...I have been known as "Babu" for many years..The terms means grandfather and it is always used with respect...




At least that's what they tell Ray

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #8727 - 11/02/04 11:32 AM

Following on the "naming" of people above, I was told in Zim once, that often the blacks, in this case the Ndebele, give clients a couple of names which they use among themselves.

One name they MAY tell the client, but the second name they absolutely will not.

He said they are very good at picking unnoticed traits of people and then applying them to an animal or bird, which when mentioned makes sense.

They did give my wife and I names but the PH wouldn't tell us , so I guess it wasn't very complementary or at least he may have thought we might be offended. i would rather have known even if it wasn't that nice.

I think the worst would be if you were too boring not to be given names at all.

Not all African tribes do this but the Ndebele or Matabele do I believe.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #8737 - 11/02/04 12:25 PM

Ray

You might ask Igbal or Melhumaker (sorry on the sp.) but I don't think Babu necessarily means what you think. Maybe as used by the Blacks but not as used by the Indians.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: mickey]
      #8922 - 13/02/04 09:43 AM

In reply to:

Ray

You might ask Igbal or Melhumaker (sorry on the sp.) but I don't think Babu necessarily means what you think. Maybe as used by the Blacks but not as used by the Indians.






Mick. I'm no expert on African langauges, but I beleve the word Baba, is father, or sometimes used as Boss , Babu, is grandfather, and Mama is the head female!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #8955 - 13/02/04 02:31 PM

Ok for some fun.

Who wants their title changed from "addict", "member", "gunnut" or "enthusiast" to "Wise Old Man"

(if it fits - pun intended )

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #8963 - 13/02/04 03:25 PM

Being neither, I pass.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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475Guy
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: NitroX]
      #8969 - 13/02/04 05:17 PM

Hell, I'm double nickel right now. Ask me that question in about ten years.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: 475Guy]
      #8977 - 13/02/04 06:48 PM

you need to change shakari's to "short arse"

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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shakari
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9079 - 15/02/04 08:44 AM

Mfesharne actually

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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iqbal
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Re: Wise Old Men of Africa [Re: mickey]
      #9102 - 15/02/04 04:37 PM

Mickey, the word "babu"has various meanings depending on the way its used.A well dressed person or a natty dresser is usually refered to as a babu.A govt. official is also known as one,so is a trader or businessman.It is also used to adress your father,all in all it is a term of respect.

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