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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Homogenious bullets and doubles
      #7333 - 24/01/04 04:34 AM

Question:

Has anyone had any first hand experience with homogenius bullets and the new thicker walled solids in thin barreled rifles, like doubles? I've read the horror stories by G. Wright and G. Woods, but I would like to know what you guys think?

Thanks!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Chasseur]
      #7337 - 24/01/04 06:05 AM

I have, and it was a sad, painful experience that really opened my eyes. My consolation was twofold - the rifle belonged to a good friend and hunting partner, and not to me, and I warned him about it, but he insisted. I did much of the shooting myself. It was as lovely a Westley Richards as you could want. The barrels were ruined with Barnes X bullets, a grand total of about 50 rounds. I'll never again pull the trigger on an X bullet in ANY rifle that belongs to me, double or otherwise.

Since then, I use only conventional lead core bullets in my doubles, ususally Woodleigh or Hawk. I shoot steel jacketed solids sparingly, and there is no earthly need to do otherwise. I also assiduously avoid any bullet with a monometal section - Trophy Bonded Bearclaws (solid shank), Swift A-Frame (the partion in the middle means that this bullet is homogenous for a short section; also, the shank of this bullet is as hard as a pair of good quality woodpecker lips), etc. At nitro express velocities, these bullets offer no advantage over conventional bonded lead core bullets such as the Woodleigh. The risk of damage comes with no offsetting gain. It isn't worth it.

I've read Gregor Wood's dubious tome and if I remember correctly (I thought so much of the book that I gave it away, so I can't verify), he perpetuates the lie that this is an "antique" double rifle problem only. New doubles can be damaged by homogenous bullets just as easily as the old and I know of several new rifles that have been.
---------------------------------


--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Chasseur]
      #7338 - 24/01/04 06:21 AM

Chasseur,

Believe what Graeme Wright et all say. Stay away from Homogenous bullets - Barnes X etc.
Some people (including me) also include Swift A frames in this as they have a solid mid section
which again doesn't "give" as it goes down the barrels, therefore making it homogenous
as the poster above says.

They are expensive mistakes that don't need to be made as everyone says don't use them.

It does apply to MODERN Doubles as well - Chapuis etc al have said after fixing people's
prblems that they won't fix them if they keep using Homogenous bullets (see post somewhere on AR).

Hope this helps

500 Nitro



Edited by 500Nitro (24/01/04 06:25 AM)

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #7341 - 24/01/04 06:37 AM

would this include the Nosler Partition????

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7349 - 24/01/04 08:48 AM

Guys thanks for your information!

When I read Wright's 2nd edition it convinced me not to use them. I also found Wood's "antique" vs. "modern" distinction not really credible (thin barrels are thin barrels at the end of the day, and thin barrels and hard bullets will not long make for happy combination).

400nitro what did you not like about Woods' book? I mostly objected to his bold bias (when reading I had to ask myself: why write a book about safari rifles and come to conclusions like, "I find heavy double rifles too barrel heavy,"??? hey I wonder who your audiance is???)

What of old nosler partitions then? Just I have some nice recipes for them for my 9.3 and would like to try them out, but had some second thoughts.

This forum is great!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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BFaucett
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Chasseur]
      #7353 - 24/01/04 10:13 AM

Let me state up front that I'm a neophyte when it comes to double rifles. I purchased a new Merkel double in .470 about a year and a half ago. I've only fired about 30 rounds through it so far. I have read Wright's 2nd edition book and everything by Ross Seyfried in the Double Gun Journal magazine for about the last five years. So, as a beginner and having to make a decision for myself about what bullets to use, I decided that I would only shoot Woodleigh bullets through my Merkel. Period. I'll let someone else experiment with homogenous bullets in THEIR double rifle.

Just my two cents worth....
-Bob F.

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: BFaucett]
      #7364 - 24/01/04 11:27 AM


"Thin barrels are thin barrels at the end of the day, and thin barrels and hard bullets
will not long make for happy combination"

It's not the Hardness that causes the problem - it's the lack of "give" in the bullet which means
that the only thing to "give" as the bullet passes down the barrel is the barrel itself - hence the problem.

ie Woodleigh Steel Jacketed Solids are made of Coated Steel - steel is hard as we all know, HOWEVER
the bullet has a LEAD core and is open at the bottom. This allows some "give" as it travels down the barrel.

However like the 2nd poster, I only use Woodleigh Steel Jacketed Solids sparingly - I work up loads using
Woodleigh Softnoses, the once I've got the load I check that the solids shoot the same (4 - 8 shots) and then
I only shoot Soft Nose bullets unless I'm hunting Buffalo, in which case my 2nd shot in a double is always a solid
and the last round in my bolt gun magazine is always a solid.

I have not had any problems so far over about 10 - 15 double rifles - Old English and New.

Also, Woodleigh bullets are profiled (shaped) as per old English Double Rifle Bullets so that the minimum amount
of contact is made between bullet and barrel ie .458 bullet is only .458 for a small part of it's base, it then tapers slowly.
This helps enourmously with pressure and wear on the barrels.

Nosler Partitions - don't know buy why use a bullet when you have Woodleigh's et al ?

Hope this helps

500 Nitro

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luv2safari
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Posts: 1401
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #7373 - 24/01/04 12:04 PM

For serious hunting of critters who take great exception to being shot, Woodleighs are the very best in my experience.

Another good solid is the Hornady copper plated steel jacket. It has plenty of give for double rifles and holds shape well. Too bad they don't offer it in more bores...9,3, 408, etc. I watched a client shoot a very nice White Bearded Wildebeest at 150 yards with a 9,3x64 and Barnes 250 gr XFB, and watched in disbelief as his somewhat high, but not too badly placed shot, exited out the top of the animal. Maybe this proves the Kennedy assasination theory about the one bullet traveling up, down, right, then left...with no deformation.

Barnes bullets will never run down the bore of anything I am shooting!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Edited by luv2safari (24/01/04 12:08 PM)

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mickey
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7381 - 24/01/04 01:04 PM

This whole post plays right into my Pet Peeve about reloading. That is our tendencies to screw around with things until we break something.

As stated here and many other places 'The Best Bullet You Can Get For A Double Rifle is a Woodleigh'. Why do people even want to try other bullets? Particularly ones that may/probably will damage your rifle. Even if they don't they will not be as efficent as the Woodleighs. I am not talking about playing with cast bullets or Hornadys but of the monolithic bullets and such that are designed for Bolt Rifles with more velocity than a Double will give you.

STOP IT !!!!

Okay, I'm better now.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: mickey]
      #7388 - 24/01/04 01:50 PM

In reply to:

As stated here and many other places 'The Best Bullet You Can Get For A Double Rifle is a Woodleigh'. Why do people even want to try other bullets?



Yeah I totally agree.
We are indeed lucky that best quality bullets designed especially for double rifles are so easy to obtain.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Chasseur]
      #7394 - 24/01/04 03:00 PM

Chasseur & dasMafia:

In regard to your question about the Nosler Partition, the short answer is, I've never tried it. I only own one double rifle that Nosler makes the Partition in an appropriate diameter for, a .400/.360 NE that I use off the shelf 9.3 bullets in. The 286 grain 9.3 Partition was introduced about the time I had had an experience with the 300 grain Swift A-Frame that convinced me not to use it. Added to my experience with my friend's Westley Richards, I decided to restrict my doubles to conventional lead core bullets only.

You might find my experience with the A-Frame of interest. My .400/.360 was regulated for 300 grain bullets, and although 270 and 285 grain bullets give very good accuracy in it, 300 grain shoot the best. The problem is that 300 grain 9.3 bullets are hard to find. Since the Swift 9.3 is a 300, I reluctantly decided to try it. This .400/.360 has a tight bore and I size down off the shelf 9.3 bullets to groove diameter (.363") in a Corbin reducing die. Even RWS and Woodleigh steel-jacketed solids go through this die with just slightly more pressure on the handle than is required to full length resize a case. The first Swift I tried wouldn't enter the die. I checked the diameter - .366" just like it is supposed to be. I added more lube and tried again and just couldn't get it to go. I then added a 4' length of steel pipe to the handle as a cheater. I quit when the top of the loading table began to crackle under the load. The bullet didn't enter the die - not even .001". Nope, not in MY double rifle.

I look at it like this. I'm guessing a little as I haven't priced it since the problem with the Westley, but I would imagine that sending an English double back to the maker for new barrels would currently cost around $15,000 - more than most nice second-hand English boxlock double rifles are worth. When you damage the barrels, you've screwed the pooch. The Nosler is probably a softer bullet than the Swift, and it just might be OK, but finding out the hard way is a little rich for my blood. The Partition and the A-Frame are wonderful bullets, but so are Woodleighs, and they are a known quantity in double rifles as they were designed with them in mind.
--------------------------------


--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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luv2safari
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Posts: 1401
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7395 - 24/01/04 03:08 PM

Not over here and not for a decent price...Woodleighs are good bullets, but I can buy gold for about the same price. Finding the supplier d'jour is a bit of a quest, too. Every time I find a source, they are closing out the slow moving merchandise...Woodleighs...and I buy what they have, then look for the new Woodleigh dealer.

Woodleighs are possibly a bit too "tough" for much N. American hunting. We don't use double rifles much, either, and don't have to worry about old double rifles being ruined by a certain type of bullet. For the calibers that are common, Hornady makes good bullets; so does Speer...both are moderately priced. I would never think of using those Speer tungston solids in a double rifle, however...pure poison!

Have you ever tried the Hornady solids? If so, I would appreciate your honest opinion of them. They are more readily available here.

I feel there is NO better first shot on buffalo than a Woodleigh protected point of sufficient weight. With the knuckleheads running things down under, I worry about a supply of bullets from your good country vanishing, just like your gun rights. Am I too alarmed about the situation?

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Hauptjäger
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Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 94
Loc: Hilo, Hawaii
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Chasseur]
      #7420 - 25/01/04 03:24 PM

Hi guys!

I have to say that the “idea” of a bullet the will expand and also keep enough mass to have good penetration. However, I see the point about Homogenious bullets and thin barrels, however would the damage that you all describe effect all riffles regardless if it has thick or thin barrels?

The Homogenious bullets do not “give” as it moves through the rifleings thus greatly damaging them no mater the weapon. Am I correct in this thinking?

It seems logical that as Chasseur pointed out “thin barrels and hard bullets will not long make for happy combination.” So to then hard bullets and any barrel will not long make for combination.

--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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luv2safari
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Posts: 1401
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #7422 - 25/01/04 04:28 PM

At best they kick a double rifle all out of regulation; at wost, they ruin fine guns. I don't see any problem with them in bolt action rifles. Just stick to Woodleighs, or maybe Hornady in 375,416, and 458 solids...

Woodleighs were designed for doubles and are as good as it gets!!

By the way, Valmet/Tikka barrels seem to withstand the monolithic bullets. They are a bit heavy and are easy to re-regulate...but again, why not just shoot Woodleighs...?...problem solved.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7425 - 25/01/04 05:32 PM

One of the problems in a Double is that the barrels are soldered together and that leaves zero room for movement of the barrel. Something has to give and that would be the solder.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: mickey]
      #7444 - 26/01/04 04:10 AM

I will only shoot Woodleighs in my English doubles...

I have no problem shooting GS flat nose solids and Bridgers flat nose solid monolithics in my Searcy rifle...

These bullets have the pressure rings and actually build less pressure than the woodlighs according to my chronograph, but the Searcy is made of modern steel and that is a plus plus...It also shoots 1" or better at 50 yards, usually touching both bullets...

My friend and PH Johan Calitz has been shooting the FN solids in his Searcy double for about 8 or 9 years, whenever GS started producing and has killed many many elephants, buffalo and Lion with them....

Bridgers, John McMorrow makes a solid copper flat nose solid with pressure rings and it is designed for doubles...I use only solids to hunt dangerous game in my Searcy .470...as I did with my several 450-400s a caliber I dearly love.

I shot the GS FN Solids in my 450-400 without incident,and I shot a lot of them, but they have pressure rings and they shot very well and I hunted with them extensively...the rings make a difference...I would not use a Barnes, BarnesX, or any other monolithic without pressure rings...

Today I use only Bridger Bullets FN solid copper solids as they work and they are available...

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NONE
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Posts: 110
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7448 - 26/01/04 05:40 AM

"Not over here and not for a decent price...Woodleighs are good bullets, but I can buy gold for about the same price. Finding the supplier d'jour is a bit of a quest, too. Every time I find a source, they are closing out the slow moving merchandise...Woodleighs...and I buy what they have, then look for the new Woodleigh dealer."


Luv2safari try MR. Ed Plumber at AHR (American hunting rifles) he loads the Woodleighs for me in .458 lott and uses them in many of his loadings, he I would think, might be a reliable source for you as I am sure he would entertain selling the bullets or put you in touch with someone who would in the US.
I also may add that he is currently building me a custom .458lott rifle and once its done I plan to commission another for NA hunting, he is a class act all the way or I would not recommend him.

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/

James F. Nixon III

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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Chasseur]
      #7450 - 26/01/04 06:27 AM

Another homogenius bullet is a paper patched cast bullet. The hardness of the bullet can be adjusted by the alloy. If you want hard, use linotype. Not hard enough? Try anti-friction babbit at about 40 BHN. That's the equivalent of copper. These hard cast bullets are essentialy solids.

If you could get an X bullet at bore diameter and patch it up to groove diameter it might be safe in an older double. I think it was Whitworth who shot patched heat treated steel bullets without damaging the barrel. Even if you can get an X bullet down the barrel, what about regulation? The length-diameter ratio is so much different than a lead core bullet, that it must alter the point of impact.

Dave

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: nopride2]
      #7514 - 27/01/04 02:40 AM

In reply to:

Another homogenius bullet is a paper patched cast bullet.

If you could get an X bullet at bore diameter and patch it up to groove diameter it might be safe in an older double.



The so-called Pressure rings are the modern equivilent of the PAPER PATCH! The rings are cut into the bullet down to the BORE DIAMETER, and the tops of the rings are slightly higher than grouve diameter. This allows the metel in the rings to be easily displaced into the cut in the bullet, acting similer to a soft bullet!

All bullets expand the barrel as it passes through the bore, sort of like an egg passing through a snake. The bulge follows the bullet, and retracts as the bullet passes. This is the problem with Nono-metel bullets in doubles. As Micky says in a single barrel, the elasticity of the barrel lets the barrel react to this without damage, but in a double rifle the solder between the barrel and ribs sometimes lets go! The Valmet, and Tikka do not have ribs, so are not adversly effected. The pressure rings ar the way to go with the X-bullets, and Monolithic bullets if they are to ever be used in doubles, without risk!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7519 - 27/01/04 04:31 AM

my question re: the Partition stems from two things...

a) just want more info, and the partition is VERY available in a lot of calibers... and reasonable priced and effective on plains game.

b) its one of the few factory loads for my 375H&H No. 1 Tropical that I can get in town... and was just a little curious.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7524 - 27/01/04 06:00 AM

In reply to:

my question re: the Partition stems from two things...

a) just want more info, and the partition is VERY available in a lot of calibers... and reasonable priced and effective on plains game.

b) its one of the few factory loads for my 375H&H No. 1 Tropical that I can get in town... and was just a little curious.



DasMafia, don't worry about the Nosler Partitions in your No1, it will not hurt it, but I guarintee you it will hurt what ever you shoot with it!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7525 - 27/01/04 07:51 AM

Dugaboy,

WHat of partitions in doubles?

I have the same reasons as dasmafia, I have many, many good looking nosler partitions loads for 9.3x74r and thought it would be fun to load some up, while I wait for the norma realoading manual to finally come out.

THanks!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: Chasseur]
      #7533 - 27/01/04 12:41 PM

In reply to:

Dugaboy,
WHat of partitions in doubles?



Chasseur, I,m undecided about the Nosler Partition as it is made today! The old NPs were made with a relief cut around the bullet over the PARTITION so the bearing surface is seperated in the middle of the bullet relieveing the area over the partition. Today, however, the bearing surface runs the same diameter right over the partition. So in the area of the Partition the bullet is a solid mono metel bullet! I'm not sure that the narrow partition is enough to do harm, but I certainly can't say for sure it isn't! The Nosler Partition is my favorite soft point in my bolt, and single shot rifles, especially the 375 H&H. Like you, I'm torn up with doubt!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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NE450No2
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7537 - 27/01/04 01:51 PM

I use Nosler Partitions in my 9,3 Chapuis with no pressure problems. They shoot very good. I also shoot Swift 500gr A-Frames in my 450 No2. No pressure signs and they are the bullet my No2 likes the best. Still for most uses the Woodleighs are hard to beat in double rifles.

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atkinson6
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles [Re: NE450No2]
      #7540 - 27/01/04 03:31 PM

Partly to stir things up and partly to settle an old argument....both need to be addressed.

Who here can say that they have seen a double damaged by a monolithics and prove it...

The last guy that came up with that crap about the riflings being pushed outward could not come up with the gun and assured me he was going to take a picture of it and post it over on AR, not only did I not hear from him, he disapeared off into the blue.....Turned out the gun belonged to a friend who didn't have time to photograp it and send me a photo....

Do monolithics build pressure, probably that is more of a problem than anything else, but we have chronographs and they can be loaded down and still get the same velocity..Worth some thought anyway...Excess pressure can take a double off the face but not split the solder IMO...

I have chased this phenomenom for several years and as of today I have never seen a double damaged by monolithics and I know a bunch of PH that have old hand me down Holland and Hollands, Rigbys and such wonderful possession that were bought many years ago for wall hangers, they don't know much about guns and they shoot whatever they can get and that is a lot of monolithics, they have gotten away with it....

The double is a mystic rifle, and it is a child of mystery and fraudulent beliefs that have been passed on from one generation to the next, so much so that no one really knows its capabilities because it has been cloaked in voo doo for the last century or two...

First we hear that fillers blow them up; then we hear that IMR-3031 blows them up; then we hear the 4831 has a long expansion ratio down the barrel and splits out the barrels; then we hear that only copper and lead bullets will not blow them up; then we are expected to believe that copper is harder than steel; and I have forgotten a few of the other fables be they true or not, I do not know, but I do shoot fillers, I do shoot 4831, even 3031, I have shot all maner of bullets such as GS monolithics, Hornady, Noslers and such....Many a solid by Woodleigh, Hornady, RWS, and others I have shot...

I feel that I can guarentee you no bullet is going to push the riflings to the outside of a barrel, that is hogwash of the first order...

So where does all this take us? Well perhaps down the yellow brick road Dorothy, its a fairy tale and the tin man is running the show.......

Its time to seperate the BS from the truth, which in fact none of us know!! I will shoot the GS solids in any double rifle and have shot them extensively in my Army/Navy and my Jefferys without any problem and based on that I will shoot Bridgers in any double as he uses the same metal and design as GS...I will shoot either 4831, 3031 or any other good powder at proper velocity and I will use fillers with RL-15.....

So where do we stand on this issue, do we remain in darkness or do we come out into the light and establish a proper standard for these fine guns....

I have also been a victim of these fables and I have not shot any BarnesX bullets in my doubles, but I know many who have.....

We are talking English guns, not the newer guns of today with better steel which I am sure can shoot any bullet.....

I'm listening? and I do respect any reply to come out of this that has some substance....

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