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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Double rifle on german 12-bore?
      #69919 - 22/01/07 01:28 AM

Hi!

Tryed searching after anything about rebuilding a merkel 12-bore into a DR, but didnt realy find anything. I have one that i'm thinking of adding a set of barrels for in a nice allround (read large) caliber. But wonder what would be a the biggest without stressing the gun. Anyone that's already rebuild one that can give some advice to a rookie?

mvh/Andreas

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Kalunga
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 450_366]
      #69923 - 22/01/07 02:18 AM

Hi 450 366,
I just checked yesterday on www.egun.de and there is a gunsmith offering conversions to double rifles with adjustable barrels. I think he uses Simson shotguns on a regular basis. He charges around 2ooo,- Euros if You supply the shotgun. You can have a look at his auction when You search for Art.-ID 1097420 or if You browse from the homepage, click on button "Jagdwaffen", then on button "Büchsen", then on "Doppelbüchsen" and You will find his auction under "Doppelbüchse PGH Suhl 8x57 IRS-8x57IRS".
Hope this is interesting for You

Kalunga

"Wicked good hunting"


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450_366
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: Kalunga]
      #69924 - 22/01/07 02:56 AM

Quote:

Hi 450 366,
I just checked yesterday on www.egun.de and there is a gunsmith offering conversions to double rifles with adjustable barrels. I think he uses Simson shotguns on a regular basis. He charges around 2ooo,- Euros if You supply the shotgun. You can have a look at his auction when You search for Art.-ID 1097420 or if You browse from the homepage, click on button "Jagdwaffen", then on button "Büchsen", then on "Doppelbüchsen" and You will find his auction under "Doppelbüchse PGH Suhl 8x57 IRS-8x57IRS".
Hope this is interesting for You

Kalunga

"Wicked good hunting"




Thanks!

But it seems that they still use the shotgunbores in the full length, as if they basicly just welded a pair of removamble barrels in the remaining ones. I could of course be wrong, but if so it doesent realy apply my desire for a fine looking double rifle. Also in a quite small calibre, it seems that none would like building anything larger in a "old" suhler?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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banzaibird
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 450_366]
      #69925 - 22/01/07 03:05 AM

The Merkel should do just fine. Merkel only uses one frame for their double rifles and shotguns. So in essence they build their shotguns on a rifle frame. I had made myself a nice 9.3x74r on a Merkel Model 8 20 gauge. I however let myself get "talked" out of it at the local range one day.

The "New Rigby" or "California Rigby" uses all Merkel actions to build their lines of rifles. http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/pages/SidelockD.html They chamber eveything up to 577 NE in their line.

Bill


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500Nitro
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #69927 - 22/01/07 03:33 AM


Merkel's are good strong guns and should be fine.

Measure it up against a GREENER Empire model as we know that we can use these for 577 2 3/4 NfB.

What are you looking at Building ?

577 2 3/4 NfB ?

500 NfB ?


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450_366
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #69931 - 22/01/07 04:39 AM

If its true that is that strong its a shame that almost everyone thats been rebuilt here around ends at 8x57r.

I was initially wanting to build something to shoot 9,3mm bullets (and will so do also) with the intention to build a ,375 if the 9,3 works well(and if I'm capable of it). Thats why i'm interest to here from anyone that alredy rebuild one to know how much force it can live with.

But if it can hold it why not a 450NE 3,5"

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 450_366]
      #69936 - 22/01/07 08:40 AM

Quote:

If its true that is that strong its a shame that almost everyone thats been rebuilt here around ends at 8x57r.

I was initially wanting to build something to shoot 9,3mm bullets (and will so do also) with the intention to build a ,375 if the 9,3 works well(and if I'm capable of it). Thats why i'm interest to here from anyone that alredy rebuild one to know how much force it can live with.

But if it can hold it why not a 450NE 3,5"




Gentlemen, as I understand it, the donor shotgun action, for this project, is a 12 ga! If so, the action is, IMO, too big for the .450s,though it could be done. I would go for the 500NE. Then use NFB loads, and work up,to a load that shot well in both barrels for group, without pressure sign, before regulating, then regulate for that load.

The Merkel action will take a lot of pressure above that chambering, which is quite mild in chamber pressure. The limiting factor here is, the shotgun wood work was not designed to take recoil heavier than the 12 ga shotgun recoil. Some work might be needed here!

The 375H&H,416Jefery,470NE, and 500NE Merkel double rifles are built on a 20 ga size action! The 12 ga is much wider, and is better barreled to 470NE,500NE range of chamberings, as the 500NE Merkel is a little light in the factory rifle, built on the smaller action.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Marrakai
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #69968 - 22/01/07 08:37 PM

Mac:
I would argue that they should all be built on the 12-bore action! The thicker chamber walls would put more weight 'between the hands', and allow the maker to slim down the forward part of the barrels 'correctly' while still keeping to the nominated total weight.

The result would be a rifle with the liveliness of a Jeffery or Westley Richards boxlock, rather than a lump of lead pipe like large-calibre conversions on the 16 or 20-bore action are prone to be.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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450_366
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #70008 - 23/01/07 09:10 AM


500nitro.
Probably something smaller to start with. I realy need to shoot my way up. Whats the "GREENER Empire model" and NFB?

Mac.
If the wood on my gun wont stand the recoil, no would I. Not without practice anyway.

Marrakai.
I would say that the "centerheavy" DS you describe probably would be the one a go for.
I held the newest 9,3mm merkel built on a 28 gauge, sure it was light under 3kg I think,
but felt "swifty/wiggely" i think its called. And becorse of my love for my 12gauge and here we are limitet to six huntingrifles im stuck wit it.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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500Nitro
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 450_366]
      #70011 - 23/01/07 09:35 AM


450/366

RE YOUR COMMENT TO MAC re "If the wood on my gun wont stand the recoil, no would I." I would suggest you look at how some guns are stocked and the actions as some are inherantly stronger than others.

Whats the "GREENER Empire model" - Greener's most widely manufactured model - has a (generally) Round cross bolt -
I mention it as this action is used to build DR's in Australia - see Marrakai's posts or go to his web site, you will see a Picture of a 577 2 3/4" There.


NFB? Nitro for Black / sometimes referred to as Light Nitro BUT do a search. 400NitroExpress and Marrakai would have posted on this subject.

IT IS NOT a FULL NITRO LOAD.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: Marrakai]
      #70015 - 23/01/07 10:42 AM

Quote:

Mac:
I would argue that they should all be built on the 12-bore action! The thicker chamber walls would put more weight 'between the hands', and allow the maker to slim down the forward part of the barrels 'correctly' while still keeping to the nominated total weight.

The result would be a rifle with the liveliness of a Jeffery or Westley Richards boxlock, rather than a lump of lead pipe like large-calibre conversions on the 16 or 20-bore action are prone to be.




Marrakai, I would agree that the ballance would be proper if the barrels were done properly! That is the rub most conversion builders will use the same barrel profile, no matter what action they use, for a given chambering. If, in fact, proper tapering is done, then the ballance would be fine no matter what size action is used. But your point about the heavier chamber walls being better, is good. However, there are 12 ga actions, and then there are other 12 ga actions, some are much larger than others! Most cheap shotguns are MONO-Block, and are wider, than shoelump, or chopper barrel sets, hence narrower actions! Most 12 ga mono-block shotguns make better large bore rifles, than they do smaller bores. Personally, I'd rather take the 12 ga action, and sleeve in a pair of fully rifled 16 bore barrels, to use BORE RIFLE AMMO with bullets, and brass cases! Not everyone's choice, but it would be mine!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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450_366
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #70137 - 25/01/07 06:48 AM

Quote:


450/366

RE YOUR COMMENT TO MAC re "If the wood on my gun wont stand the recoil, no would I." I would suggest you look at how some guns are stocked and the actions as some are inherantly stronger than others.

Whats the "GREENER Empire model" - Greener's most widely manufactured model - has a (generally) Round cross bolt -
I mention it as this action is used to build DR's in Australia - see Marrakai's posts or go to his web site, you will see a Picture of a 577 2 3/4" There.


NFB? Nitro for Black / sometimes referred to as Light Nitro BUT do a search. 400NitroExpress and Marrakai would have posted on this subject.

IT IS NOT a FULL NITRO LOAD.




Thanks will see if i could get some info on the greener, emabarasing to say that i have never heard of it (greener of course but then only old shotguns).
About the recoil, what I ment was that im no succer for heavy recoil. I completly understand that my stock wont hold for enything heavy.
Nfb, so thats were all old bpe went.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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AngelRod1
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 450_366]
      #70412 - 29/01/07 01:51 PM

I have a JP Sauer & Sohn 12gauage Royal and have given much thought in converting it into a 470 or 500. Considering the cost of a beautiful double rifle is so beyond my reach at this time a conversion sounds really good. The problem is should I do it? Is this something that's accepted. And finally who here in the USA has the know how to do this conversion. I want something beautiful not a chop job. Angel

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banzaibird
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: AngelRod1]
      #70415 - 29/01/07 02:12 PM

My opinion and take it as that is this. If the gun you have is perfectly fine don't go cutting it up. There are quite a few of the old german guns out there that have barrels that are no good. If you are going to use one use one of these. The alternative to that is have a new set of barrels made then you can have a 2 barrel set. It really isn't all that hard to make and fit a set of shoe-lump style barrels. Especially if you have a set to start from.

Please don't think that I'm against home builts as I have built quite a few now. Most on German actions (Merkel, Simson, Sauer) but I haven't cut any gun up that was in good condition to start.

Bill


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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #70435 - 29/01/07 11:34 PM

I had a table at a local gun show yesterday morning. A chap just down the row from me had a lovely pre-war Simson, 12 bore, complete with side clips, Greener cross-bolt, cocking indicators, POW grip, 75% case colours, cheekpiece, etc. He wanted $1500Cdn(about $1200USD). I was sorely tempted, as it would have been a perfect host gun for another double rifle project, but I just wouldn't have the heart to take a hacksaw to such a lovely old classic!

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banzaibird
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #70440 - 30/01/07 01:05 AM

Ron,

I don't know how hard it is to get guns from the US for you. However you can find better pricing here in the US. The last Simson I bought was a gun with a blown left barrel and I got the entire gun for $250. However routinely you find perfectly fine Simsons or Merkel 8's for less than $1,000. It seems that Sauers are hit and miss here. Some are priced reasonably and some are just out there. I found that if you take your time and are selective you can find great actions with bad barrels for a considerable discount. I bought a German 16 last year for $100 off Gunbroker. Just need to look and be patient.

However I agree with you. I just can't bring myself to hacksaw a perfectly fine set of tubes. I've been playing with shoe lump barrels on the last few projects and really like that better than even monoblocking. I started using the set-up found here. I simply cut my material into a "T" shape with the bottom of the "T" being the lugs. I just trace the current set of lugs I have and form them to the stage of handfitting. Then make the mould as outlined above of the barrel bottoms then set-up and mill the top of the "T" so with minor hand fitting it fits the contours of the barrels. Then I silver braze the assembly together (after fitting the rib extension). I had been doing the brazing by hand with torch but found a local shop with a small oven and do it in there now. They only charge me a couple of dollars. Anyway it gives the clean look of barrels without monoblock seams and keeps from having to cut a perfectly fine set of barrels.

Bill


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AngelRod1
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #70445 - 30/01/07 02:40 AM

Bill, who does this sort of work? I would rather have someone mate a nice set of barrels to the receiver then cut the originals. I was told by a gun smiths apprentice that cutting them was the only way. I had a 458 lott built recently on a JP Sauer and Sohn Mauser action and it came out ok and very accurate but it didn't visually fufill my expectations. I thought the gunsmith understood what I wanted but in the end I realized he wasn't listening! How do we find the gunsmith who understands and realizes that you want something that functions as well as having a beautiful side as well. Lets face it these guns especially to me are peices of art. Angel

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banzaibird
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: AngelRod1]
      #70456 - 30/01/07 05:23 AM

Herein is the problem with Homebuilt DR's.

That being that to get nice work and something that resembles (or is) a working grade double lets the average person in a bind. There are very, very few people who are willing to tackle adding another set of barrels. So if and when you find someone who is willing and able to do the work it will be expensive. Thus in the long run you are much better off simply saving your money or in this case maybe sell off the Sauer shotgun and put it toward a good commercially available DR like the Chapius or Merkel. The only way this whole process even makes some sense is if you can and are able to do most of the work yourself. Thus you can do it for mere pennies on the dollar (as long as you aren’t considering paying yourself for your time).

The other option is to do like some here do and that is to sleeve the barrels of a shotgun. The only problem I see with that is of balance and feel. I real DR feels alive in the hand. Almost as if it’s ready to spring into action on its own. This balance is very hard to achieve, but is what anyone building their own DR should strive for. Though to be fair I’ve only handled one sleeved barrel and the thing felt awful. Like I should be driving in stakes with it, not hunting game.

I’ve built around 15 now and while they are getting better I’m nowhere near what one would call “best” quality. For me it’s been a progression toward getting that “balance” right. Many of the others here have put up with my questions and answered those questions providing great data on barrel contours and action size, etc. This is great for me as I can and do the vast majority of work myself. But if you have to pay someone till it’s all set and done you will be just short of a Chapius. If that’s the case it makes no sense to go with a Homebuilt that you might (Might) be able to get out what you have invested. When you can go with a field grade commercial gun and most definitely get out what you have into the gun.

The more guns I build the more I realize that the sheer craftsmanship that goes into DR’s is a bargain for the price we pay for them. I’m back to homebuilts because the one and only Commercial DR I had (a Rigby) I chose to sell to help pay off some medical bills from my son. It took me 10 years to be able to get that and it was in rough shape. However I made the choice to sell the gun to make things easier on my family and myself. It happens sometimes, that’s life, but I figure at 33 years old even if I have to go another 10 years before I get another purpose built DR it will be well worth the wait. My point being that if you want one just work on making it happen, you’ll probably hit set backs but you’ll get there soon enough. For example if you are willing to part with the Sauer Royal and the .458 Custom you mentioned you’d already have a nice nest egg for a DR.

Bill

P.S. - Please don’t take this as me trying to talk you out of a homebuilt. However as I said if you have to pay someone for the work in the long run you’d be better off getting a purpose built DR.


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Ron_Vella
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #70458 - 30/01/07 06:38 AM

I would add one thing to what the bird just said. Although I've built a number of double rifles for myself, I've turned down many requests to do it for others. Two reasons. First, the amount of labour involved makes it almost impossible to make a buck on the job at home-built prices. Second, in our lawsuit-insane societies, you'd be hanging your a$$ in the wind if something went wrong, regardless of whose fault it was.

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450_366
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #70461 - 30/01/07 08:00 AM

Quote:

My opinion and take it as that is this. If the gun you have is perfectly fine don't go cutting it up. There are quite a few of the old german guns out there that have barrels that are no good. If you are going to use one use one of these. The alternative to that is have a new set of barrels made then you can have a 2 barrel set. It really isn't all that hard to make and fit a set of shoe-lump style barrels. Especially if you have a set to start from.

Please don't think that I'm against home builts as I have built quite a few now. Most on German actions (Merkel, Simson, Sauer) but I haven't cut any gun up that was in good condition to start.

Bill




Buyed myself a simson donorgun yesterday in mint condition, must say that it will hurt when i finaly shop it up.
But here around they come sheap (payed 300 euro) as nobady want a s/s shotgun. The only thing to confort me is that if i didnt buy it, it would only be sitting in the shop untill it got exported to russia or something like it.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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banzaibird
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 450_366]
      #70464 - 30/01/07 09:46 AM

450_366,

Thats a good price for a Simson. Are the smaller gauges just as cheap? Say 16, 20 and smaller? How readily available are the Simson's, Sauer's and older Merkel's? Just being nosey. Around my area any SxS that isn't Parker or LC Smith can usually be had at a decent price. It's funny because not even the English guns do well here. There is a Greener Empire in a local shop that is in about 80% original condition and it is currently priced at $800. It has dropped $200 in the last 6 months. It's interesting to see how this compares to other areas.

Bill


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banzaibird
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #70477 - 30/01/07 02:12 PM

I would like to note after receiving multiple PM's. I'm not a gunsmith, I don't do this for a living and I'm not taking any orders for barrels or guns. I also don’t have any that I built for myself for sale. Truth be told I’m down to one and it isn’t even completed. I had to get it together so I could blood it this past deer season . Currently there is an ounce or so extra solder that needs cleaned out between the ribs and barrels.

I build them because I can’t afford a purpose built DR at this time and it really is a nice feeling to use one that you put the time and work into yourself.

Bill


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450_366
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #70499 - 30/01/07 06:54 PM

Quote:

450_366,

Thats a good price for a Simson. Are the smaller gauges just as cheap? Say 16, 20 and smaller? How readily available are the Simson's, Sauer's and older Merkel's? Just being nosey. Around my area any SxS that isn't Parker or LC Smith can usually be had at a decent price. It's funny because not even the English guns do well here. There is a Greener Empire in a local shop that is in about 80% original condition and it is currently priced at $800. It has dropped $200 in the last 6 months. It's interesting to see how this compares to other areas.

Bill




My guns are quite new models (47E) but older ones like the mod.8 cost about 100euro (Shop price) and are wery easy to get hold on. Both the merkel/simson and sauer-sohn are in a large quantetis here.
The 16 gauge is even sheaper but not as common, the 20 gauge is wery rare and everyone seems to be looking to buy one. But when sold the cost about 400-500 euro.
Theres mostly german s/s in the market if its not a Husky or belguan(no one wants these as it seems)one

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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banzaibird
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: 450_366]
      #70513 - 31/01/07 12:39 AM

Wow, that is quite a difference. If I'm converting monies correctly that is about $130 US for the older stuff. Here most Model 8’s will go for $650-$1,000. The 47’s will go from about $1,100 to $1,600. That is major difference in prices. Sounds like those of us who build shotguns should get a group buy going on with an importer and use you as our buyer .

Thanks for the information and keep us up to date when you start your build.

Bill


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450_366
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Re: Double rifle on german 12-bore? [Re: banzaibird]
      #70534 - 31/01/07 05:28 AM

Jepp, it seems that the price is quite much lower here. Perhaps its not to hard to get an export licens? It realy makes me want to check it up anyway.
Off this topic the old 8mm and 9,3mm husky built on mauser action are in the range of 0-100 euro.
The only thing is that the most guns around here are usually in the hans of old farmers and they see it as just another tool.

Will see if I can get some pictures and post them here when Im starting rebuild it.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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