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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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hoppdoc
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Loc: Southeastern USA
WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES??
      #68495 - 02/01/07 02:02 AM

I really enjoy my big Double but it is impractical for the states.

What Double would be? What Double would be desirable for the game here? What specifications would it have? How do americans percieve Doubles?

If I were into marketing such a Double I would promote a caliber excellent for big game like Bear, big pigs,and cougar, etc that have potentail to harm the hunter.A 9.3 sounds really attractive but---

At the risk of making all gag here I would want such a Double in Stainless with a synthetic stock and in boxlock 45-70!! There are no Ele or Cape Buff here and the limitations of the caliber would be doable!! It would be a reliable close range stopper.

Question?
What exact specs would your "American Double" have??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/01/07 02:05 AM)

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Rusty
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68497 - 02/01/07 02:58 AM

If you have a Big double, already, then it would make more sense to have a medium bore like the 9.3X74R. Or perhaps one of the cheaper express rifles in 30-06.

Both will out perform the 45/70 and since you already have the Big Bore, you really don't need another.

But hey, it's your money! Go buy what you want!

--------------------
Rusty
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zimhunter
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68498 - 02/01/07 03:27 AM

I have a new Merkel 8x57jrs that I think will serve all my needs for No. America. As soon as I get the claw mounts installed it will also be scoped,probably with a 1.5x5 Leupold VX-III. It's really a nice light handy rifle and should handle any game i'm likely to hunt in the future.

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500grains
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: zimhunter]
      #68499 - 02/01/07 03:40 AM

A 9.3 x 74R is definitely the most versatile. However, unless you are hunting elk and big bears with it, something smaller like an 8x57R or lighter like 7x65R would also be excellent.

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hoppdoc
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: 500grains]
      #68500 - 02/01/07 03:48 AM

I will reveal my ignorance and request advise from those more knowledgible than me---

If I wanted a 45 cal or 470 cal without the full bore performance of the 470 NE and having about 4000 fpe with a 450 gr bullet( not the usual 5000+ fpe) what round would one use?

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475Guy
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68501 - 02/01/07 03:52 AM

Handload with revolver bullets w/75% charges of powder.

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them in the Halls of Valhalla,
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500grains
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: 475Guy]
      #68503 - 02/01/07 03:59 AM

hoppodoc,

You can get a 470 NE and load either 500 grain cast lead or jacketed bullets (preferably something more fragile than a Woodleigh, like a Hawk) and load with XMP5744 powder. In a couple of rifles I found that 45 grains of XMP5744 regulates with a 500 grain bullet, putting velocity in the 1400 fps range. That is plenty for elk, moose, bison and North American bears.

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bonanza
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68504 - 02/01/07 04:06 AM

An American double would need to exceed in the following catagories:

A: light weight.
B: compact.
c: scoped.
D: rugged.

Merkel used to make a trim little 30-06 that was configured for scopes. A 45-70 would be all but useless unless you have nostalgia for it. As said before, a scoped 9.3x74R is the holy grail of doubles - you can hunt anything with it.

Alas, let's ask the undamental question, why a double? The answer remains the same as always: redundancy. You can take two rifles on a trip, but you always leave one back at camp. I like the fact that you can take down a double and stuff in into you backpack while you hike in. It is for the aforementioned reasons that I will be taking my Merkel .375 to Colorado elk hunting this year as my primary rifle.

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hoppdoc
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #68507 - 02/01/07 04:46 AM

Again, I will parrot Bonanza---

Agreed, but what Double guns would be possible for lighter weight?

Acording to my balistic tables the 45-70 max loaded goes 3000 fpe so that comes far short of the goal of 4000 fpe.My previous choice of 45-70 obvioously falls way short.

A lightweight 450 No 2? Some other 450 Double for 4000 fpe?
You should be able shoot a 458 cal 450 gr bullet at 2000 fps out of a 9 pound gun without getting beat up too bad--
This should handle any close range NA hunting situation easily.The problem is that you couldn't upgrade to full African performance/ballistics without getting the snot beat out of you from a 9 pound gun.

A QD scoped 450/400 SS polymer stocked would be perfect( and yes-very ugly!) and more versatile but I bet shooting 458 bore bullets in a Double would really turn on American hunters!! Sadly it may not be feasible to do this and thus a smaller lighter weight Double caliber may be needed to work in the states as well as other hunting locals.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/01/07 05:08 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68511 - 02/01/07 05:09 AM

Doc,

My brother is building a 50-90 sharps on a ceri-coated stogger coach gun for an alaskan guide for about $2500.00 Is that what you are thinking about?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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Russ_Gould
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #68513 - 02/01/07 05:28 AM

I tried to get Thompson Center interested in making a syn stocked double in 405 Win and 375JDJ but they didn't even reply.

Those would be my picks. With a set of 20 or 28 ga bbls to go with it.

Short of that, buy a FinnClassic 512S in 9.3 with a set of 12 ga bbls and get rid of everything else except your 22lr (or maybe your varmint rig) and your super heavy DG double.

--------------------
http://doublegunhq.com - specializing in fine English, German and American double guns; and http://bigfivehq.com, specializing in safari rifles and hunting safaris

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hoppdoc
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #68516 - 02/01/07 06:33 AM

Bonanza-

What are the specs on the rifle?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Snowwolfe
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68517 - 02/01/07 07:04 AM

I decided on the Chapuis in 9.3x74R. I live in Alaska and it would make a pretty good bear and moose rifle. I have shot quite a few moose in my life and all were less than 40 yards away so iron sights are adequate. But I did order the rifle with the pivot scope mount and may add a 1.5 x 5 Leupold. If I buy another one it will be in 30-06.
I love the compactness of the double.

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bonanza
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: Snowwolfe]
      #68518 - 02/01/07 07:31 AM

Stogger coach gun with 20" barrels sleaved for 50-90 sharps shooting 525Gr woodleigh at 1850 F/S for about 4000 Ft/Lbs. Fully ceri-coated inside and out for corrosion protection. Wood stock is weather proofed with gun wax. The Stogger coach gun is a pretty reliable action as the Cowboy Action gang shoot hundreds of rounds through them.

This is the to hell & back double rifle that you can abuse and not care. The guide says the Marlin lever action too unpredicable in the face of an angry Grizzly.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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hoppdoc
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #68522 - 02/01/07 09:51 AM

I think Sharps also made a 45-90 round with a 2.4 inch length vs the 45-70's 2.1 inch.45-70's will still feed in the 45-90 guns. Makes you wonder how much velocity and pressure are reasonable in a similar weapon with the 45-90 vs the 50-90.The 50-90 sharps is great but a 45-90 would have a larger bullet selection.

You can review the following info and consider suitability-- http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000913;p=0



Edited by hoppdoc (02/01/07 10:04 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68530 - 02/01/07 11:45 AM

The caliber depends on the donner(sp) shotgun. 50-90 and 50-140 are practical for the 12 gauge and 45-120 for the 16 gauge. You have to remember that these conversions have to keep the pressure at or below 10 tons. He'll do a 45-70, but only for trapdoor loads.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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hoppdoc
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: bonanza]
      #68562 - 02/01/07 11:37 PM

If the 45-90 or 45-100's are no goes due to pressure then the 50-90 may be the best combo for getting 4000 fpe from a 400+ gr bullet.

I am interested and will PM you.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Rusty
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68623 - 03/01/07 11:38 AM

If you just gotta have a 45/70, buy one. Then rechamber it for 450#2. Most likely it will shoot same POA without re-regulation. It will be all the rifle the 45/70 always wanted to be.
Perry Newman had his Pedersoli rechambered. Worked like a charm!

Otherwise, let us know when ya get a double in .458 caliber!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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mickey
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: Rusty]
      #68626 - 03/01/07 12:33 PM

Rusty

I'm no expert on Pedersolis but I have heard of more than a few that have not shot to the regulation with a rechamber. Evidently it is impossible or extremely difficult to re regulate.

The rifle have been sold for a fraction of their original value as ruined.

Care and luck seem to have a lot to do with it.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Rusty
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: mickey]
      #68692 - 03/01/07 07:09 PM

Mickey, neither am I!

All I can report on is what Perry did with his Pedersoli. You might email him and ask him to relate the story to you personally. He post as PWN375 on AR.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
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deant
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: Rusty]
      #68698 - 03/01/07 11:29 PM

I have a kodiak in 45/70 I had the dies and brass to convert it to 450ne#2. I used the kodiak a bit in cowboy action long range hitting targets offhand at 100yards with trapdoor loads. I took it to alaska for black bear last year. Was shooting 405 grain softs at 1800fps. Rolled my bear with the first shot. I love the rifle its well put togather and shoots great.
I decided if I needed a DG double Id buy something else wasnt going to chance messing up a great working rifle. I got mine when the prices were quite a bit lower than now. I was thinking about trading her for a kodiak in 9.3x74 but that would be hard for me to do also.
Dean

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mickey
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: Rusty]
      #68747 - 04/01/07 10:20 AM

Rusty

I have no doubt that Perry's rifle shoots as you claim. I have read many reports that the rechamber shoots just as well as before. I have also read of cases where they don't.

Is that a problem?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Rusty
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: mickey]
      #68751 - 04/01/07 12:04 PM

Only for those who own a rechambered rifle that doesn't shoot same POA.:-)

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: Rusty]
      #68757 - 04/01/07 12:55 PM

Okay, let me put in my $0.02 worth. I owned and shot a Pedersoli .45/70. I experimented with a lot of loads in that rifle. It had an obvious liking for the standard Remington 405 grain factory load. Shot that load to a perfection. Didn't really shoot anything else, heavier or lighter.

Here's a post I made on that rifle back in October. I stand by what I said there, for what it's worth.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....=true#Post63935

I'm no expert on DR's, but I'm no piker either. I don't mean to disparage anybody else's opinion or experience.

FWIW,

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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hoppdoc
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Re: WHAT DOUBLE FOR HUNTING THE STATES?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #68914 - 06/01/07 10:11 AM

Just got thru talking with Bonanza's brother Jason who regularly converts shotguns to Double Rifles.

Very interesting!

Apparently he uses precision machined 50-90 cartridge 4140 barrel inserts with a 12 gauge Stoeger Shotgun to shoot 535 gr Woodleighs at 1900 fps and yield about 4150 fpe.No third bite is present and the gun can be ceri-coated for Alaskan climate extremes.This is a 9 pound gun and should generate about 60 ft pounds of recoil. He reports no pressure problems with the conversion going off face with the loads its regulated for.

Any problems known with Double rifle barrel inserts out there? I have a Beretta with removable Briley inserts that works just fine. Any other problems to look for??

Any specific problems known with such conversions?? The rifle is not pretty but apparently functions well in harsh conditions and gets the job done in Alaska.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (06/01/07 11:09 AM)

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