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Tightloop
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What's wrong with a .458
      #65537 - 09/11/06 03:58 AM

Let's admit that the .458 Win Mag has some controversy which surrounds it..It has a case capacity which could use more room and is sometimes hard to make feed correctly with the straight walled case, and does not make the advertised 2150 fps with a 500 gr bullet...

But what is wrong with shooting a 400 gr bullet at 2350 in that case? Or a 450 grain bullet at 2100? There are enough great bullets on the market now that the 458 Win does not have to shoot a 500 gr solid or a 510 soft to be effective..

If a 400 solid from a 416 kills 'em, the same from a 458 should do it just a little better...with the added advantage of less recoil, larger frontal cross section and the same penetration or better than before...

Just curious, anyone tried a 458 Win shooting either the 400 or 450 grain bullets...On paper, it looks pretty good, any first hand experiences here?

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Scott
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Tightloop]
      #65538 - 09/11/06 04:28 AM

I know a guy in Sweden, who uses pretty much only a 458 wm loaded with 350, 400 and 450 gr barnes bullets. He has shot pretty much everything in Africa with it without much trouble. I will try to get you some better details.

I also have a 458 wm. Decided to by another rifle in 458 lott for my buffalo hunt in Tanzania last year. The Lott is easier to load in my opinion.

I think the 450 gr barnes would work well on buffalo. I would also think the 480 gr woodleighs would also work. For a little more range the 350 or 400 should work well for other game.

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475Guy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Tightloop]
      #65542 - 09/11/06 05:06 AM

Comparing a 400gr 416 with a 400gr 458 is like comparing apples to oranges. The sectional density between the two is way diff. The lighter 458 bullets are 45/70 bullets that are great for non-dangerous game except for some boar and black bears. The 450gr bullets are the answer to the 458 WinMag's smaller capacity case. With today's powders
and bullets available, 2250 f/s with a 450gr wouldn't be out of line, it'll be awful close to that. BTW, the other 450gr bullets made are NorthForks and are offered in softpoints and solids.



--------------------
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hoppdoc
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 475Guy]
      #65544 - 09/11/06 05:25 AM

I wouldn't have concerns shooting a 450 gr vs a 500 gr in the 458WM. I would bet North Forks would do just fine.

--------------------
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Tightloop
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 475Guy]
      #65547 - 09/11/06 05:56 AM

What about Barnes X, that is not a 45-70 type bullet, and comes in 400 gr...there are others who make a 400 soft or solid besides Northfork...

I know the SD is way different in 416 and 458 both with 400 gr bullets, but I mean really, how dead do you have to kill them...I can see a 400 gr 458 at 2300 doing a job on most anything given the correct bullet for the job (soft/solid)...

I just think the 458 Win has gotten better as bullet technology and powder technology have improved...you do not have to settle for a 500 @ 1920fps anymore..

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4seventy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Tightloop]
      #65554 - 09/11/06 09:18 AM

In reply to:

I just think the 458 Win has gotten better as bullet technology and powder technology have improved...you do not have to settle for a 500 @ 1920fps anymore..



Tightloop, yes, you're right.

JPK's Thys sidelock .458 Win double is a good one to back that up.


With Aussie powders and Hornady and Woodleigh 500 grain bullets I've been shooting loads that achieve around 2100 fps since the early 1990's.
With correct loading, excessive pressure is not an issue with the .458 Win mag.

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 4seventy]
      #65603 - 10/11/06 04:06 AM

: I am well aware of the ridiculous dorp in velocities from factory .458WM ammo these days. I cannot fathom why, with the excellent powders we have today.
: My old 22" .458 American made 2,060fps with 510gr. Winchester solids, yet that is the velocity Speer Chrono'd a .458WM at back in the 70's.
; Presently, I have a .458 Alaskan M70, same capcity as the .458WM, and it has no trouble making 2,200fps with a 500gr.Solid or soft using a variety of powders, none compressed heavily. As well it'll run 2,450fps with a 350gr. Barnes "X" and 2,400fps with a 400gr. Sounds pretty close to or better than the English .450's to me, yet no one is complaining about them.
: In testing, the Alaskan guide (can't remember his name) found the 400gr. Barnes "X" out penetrated all softs up to including 500gr. in the .458WM, and even matched solids, yet produced large wound channels, killing big bears much better. I'd think the 400gr.X or 450gr."X"'s might be excellent for about any game reqiring deep penetration.
: The premium bullets today, and modern powders now make any .458WM deliver true factory balistics of 2,150fps with a 500gr.
: Premium bullets today, have replaced sectional density requirements of old to some extent. The rules have changed, I believe - or have they?
: Francis Selous found the .450BPE with 500gr. hard cast bullets worked well on Elephant with 75gr. of Engish Powder. In case you're unaware what those balistics actually are, it's inferior to the .45-100 Sharps. He also found the 340gr. cast bullet, with up to 120gr. Powder worked wonders on the cats and large antelope species. This load is virtually identical to a light bullet load in the .45 2-7/8" Sharps.
; I guess game is tougher these days.
; imho, of course.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tightloop
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #65609 - 10/11/06 04:56 AM

I t must just be that reading the ballistics of the NE 450's by candle light makes them look better than the current 458 Win numbers...Not to berate the double cartridges, they are wonderful, just trying to figure out why Hornady is the only major ammo supplier to be able to produce 458 ammo at 2150fps and why more folks don;t take a look at what can be done now with great powders and even better bullets in that cartridge...

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bonanza
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #65610 - 10/11/06 04:56 AM

For those who have the time and desire to study terminal ballistics, here is a good start: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/08articles.html

Daryl, you can answer your own question about SD by noting how a round ball has such terrible SD but great penetration.

--------------------


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DUGABOY1
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Tightloop]
      #65614 - 10/11/06 07:36 AM

In reply to:

Let's admit that the .458 Win Mag has some controversy which surrounds it..It has a case capacity which could use more room and is sometimes hard to make feed correctly with the straight walled case, and does not make the advertised 2150 fps with a 500 gr bullet...




"WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE .458 WIN MAG?"

TIGHTLOOP , I think you answered your own question quite adiquately with your comments quoted above!

That being said, the .458 Win Mag is a viable cartridge today, because of new powders, and handloaders can very narrowly reach what it should have done with factory ammo in the begining!

My opinion is, if you already have a .458 Win Mag, and you are a carefull handloader, then use it, if that makes you happy. With just a little work, however, one can re-chamber to 458 LOTT, which is what the 458 WM should have been origenally. It can be easily loaded to the old Win Mag .458, speeds, with lower pressures, and without crushing, or compacting the powder. Then none of the draw-backs of the win mag case exist, and there is no need to load to the top speeds of the LOTT case to get proper speeds with a 500 gr bullet. These loads generate no more recoil, or pressure than the 458 Win Mag, but do it without the problems!

You can "MAKE DO" with the old 458 Win Mag, but my question is, Why bother, when the lott is available.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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475Guy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #65616 - 10/11/06 07:52 AM

That's easy, it's the same as why have a 38Sp when one can have a 357 and shoot 38's in them? They each have a small particular niche in the scheme of things.

--------------------
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Grizzly
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 475Guy]
      #65625 - 10/11/06 10:58 AM

The 458 win was a great concept, but Winchester for whatever reason cut some corners. For starters, they made the case too short. The 458 Lott cured all of those ills, and then some. Lott made the case to the right length.

The 458 win mag has a bad reputation for never getting close to its published velocities. And wasn't it Jack Lott who had an almost fatal experience with the 458 win in Africa?

Also, I believe you can shoot 458 win mags in a Lott, but not vice versa.



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hoppdoc
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #65627 - 10/11/06 11:05 AM

I have a 458 I play with and handload for.

Mac's comments are spot on.

The thread on the 400 Tembo discussing the Zim test and the 416 Rem mag is very concerning applied to the 458.Yes I can narrowly get 2150 with 500's but what about the pressure in that African heat?Could be a death sentence in a tight. Would you be better off to shoot a premium 450 grain faster at a lower pressure and have a safety margin so the rifle won't seize up?

Better yet as suggested make it into a 458 Lott to have less pressure..Kinda makes a 458 Lott more desirable running less than max velocity.

HMMM!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (10/11/06 11:07 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Grizzly]
      #65629 - 10/11/06 11:44 AM

Here is the real story regarding the .458 win mag. To get 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet extruded powder under heavy compression was required. The chemical composition and coatings caused the powder to become a solid over time (as little as a year). This had detrimental effect on velocities as one can imagine.

Today's “modern” powders will do exactly the same if you compress it. I recently pulled some two year old compressed .375 loads and had to chisel the powder out!

Compressed loads are OK if you shoot them in the next 30 to 90 days. Some of you are now saying hog-wash, but this has be confirmed by two factory loaders I contacted for custom ammo.


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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4seventy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: hoppdoc]
      #65631 - 10/11/06 12:03 PM

Less pressure would be a good thing, assuming that pressure is a problem in the first place.
In years of reloading the 458 Win I have never experienced problems with excess pressure.
Problems to do with limited case capacity when using some powders, yes, but overly high pressure signs, no.
Regarding heat, Africa is not the only place with high temperatures.
When I first worked up loads with 500's at 2100 plus in the 458 I did it in outback Queensland January heat which is often over 100 F, and sometimes closer to 120 F in the shade.
There is no shortage of extreme heat during summer in far west Queensland.

The Jack Lott buff incident has been mistold many times.
You need to read the entire story to understand what really happened.

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Tightloop
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 4seventy]
      #65634 - 10/11/06 01:24 PM

I am not sure I know what really happened...I seem to remember that he shot it with a 375 and the PH had a 458...they did not put in a telling shot until the buff had run over Lott and had more holes in him than a collander...that is the way I heard it, but could be wrong...

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4seventy
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Tightloop]
      #65760 - 12/11/06 07:49 PM

Tightloop,
Lott was using a 458. The PH, Wally Johnson, was carrying a 375 which also belonged to Lott.
Lott was quite badly knocked about but was not actually gored or holed.
He ended up with brocken ribs, and an eye injury which soon became infected.
By Jacks own admission, the drama occurred mainly due to poor bullet selection, (a soft instead of solid) and poor placement of the first shot, due to waiting too long to shoot, allowing the animal time to turn just as the shot was taken.

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Grizzly]
      #65780 - 13/11/06 04:27 AM

Grizzly - the Lott chambering is different from the Watt's chambering, in that there is no 90 degree shoulder at the chamber's case mouth with the Lott as there is with the Watt version(of the 1950's). Otherwise they are about identical.
: Lacking the sharp case mouth inner shoulder, the Lott chamber's smooth angles allow shooting ammunition that is much too short for the chamber, ie: .458WM. You could shoot .458's from a Watt's chamber, but that sharp edge would or could shave jacket material as the bullet passed over it. Subsequently, you would probably not be able to chamber a proper length loaded round, and that jacket material would be difficult to remove without a chambering reamer.
: With the Lott's smooth transition, there is no shoulder to catch and grab the jacket, and the bullet is allowed to rattle itself into a fairly correct line with the bore's axis as it is squirted down the barrel, apparently with satisfactory accuracy.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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es
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #66367 - 05/12/06 09:47 AM

The original question was; what is wrong with a 458. The answer is simple. Nothing. With factory ammo and reasonable reloads it just merrily kills the hell out of stuff, from elephants on down.

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hoppdoc
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: es]
      #66385 - 05/12/06 07:02 PM

Whats wrong with a 458 lott at less than max velocities and slightly lower pressures??

Presumably nothing.

I am debating whether to ream out the 458WM to 458 Lott and modify my Win70.Would this make for a more reliable African DG rifle?

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: es]
      #66487 - 07/12/06 03:43 AM

ES - I believe you are entirely correct - the .458 is just as fine today(or better), as it was 40 years ago. Today, best results come from handloading is all. So many great bullets to choose from, and powders that give the same or higher velocities as the original factory loads & at lower pressure as well. On top of all that, are the premium bullets available today that weren't just a few years back. Ctgs. now get better as time goes on.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: 475Guy]
      #67100 - 15/12/06 10:09 AM

Quote:

That's easy, it's the same as why have a 38Sp when one can have a 357 and shoot 38's in them? They each have a small particular niche in the scheme of things.



Again, WHY when the Lott is avalible? A rifle chambered for the lott will shoot both cartridges, just the same way it is better to have a 357 Mag pistol because you can shoot 38 specl as well.

I have now, and have owned several 458 Win Mag rifles over the years, but if I want a bolt rifle to take into the weeds with a pissed off Buffalo, and there is a choice of a 458 Win Mag, or a 458 LOTT, the LOTT will go with me!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Shanster
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: Tightloop]
      #67129 - 15/12/06 05:58 PM

I have a CZ 550 in 458lott. (I wouldnt hunt bull chipmunk with it but that is another story)
500 gr x with 80 gr imr 4320 2225 fps at 1o feet past the Muzzle. Recoil to excessive to shoot more than 5 rounds.
Shan

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DarylS
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #67250 - 17/12/06 07:25 AM

Why are any wildcats available? Because someone dreamed them up to 'fill' a niche they envisioned. Some are good, some are great, some are poor and some fill a niche that doesn't exist, except for them. some wildcats become factory, while others become proprietary ctgs. and some exist only as wildcats.
: Without the initial development of wildcats, we'd all be shooting the same damn boring factory ctgs. - now, what fun would that be?
: No one is saying the Lott isn't better than the .458 in some way and that it won't match .458 ballistics with less pressure. Obviously it will and does. Just look at the size of some of the British rounds. They were designed to reduce pressure without gaining any greater ballistics than what already worked. What worked was a 480gr. to 500gr. bulet at 2,100fps to 2,150fps. The .458 Win Mag will do that without excessive pressure, and do it today with around 70gr. of powder. If one wants to shoot 80gr. to 90gr. of powder, or even 100gr. of powder to do the same thing, have at it. For me, the .458 will be fine (or the .458 Alaskan - same difference) and have a bit less recoil and shorter action than the longer round. Of course my only need for such a cannon, if a need actually exists, is for big bears. For that, 350gr. to 400gr. Barnes will work just fine. If I ever go to Africa, and I'd love to, some day, the .458 Alaskan (same ballistics as the .458WM)will go with me, and do just fine, loaded to 2,200fps with 500gr. or 400gr. to 450gr. at 2,300fps. I won't be buying a .450 Lott for that one trip just because it does the same thing with 5,000 psi less pressure.
: Of course, "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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458Win
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Re: What's wrong with a .458 [Re: DarylS]
      #69017 - 07/01/07 02:24 PM

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 458WM. With current powders it easily reaches the velocities of the old Kynoch loads and in many cases beats them. I have chronographed many original Kynoch loads and most actualy show 150-200 fps lower velocities than thos published. The current 458 loads do exactly what Jack Lott originally intended his version to do. Personally I have never seen where another 100-150fps made any difference but if that is what you want then the Lott is a fine round. But if you really believe extra velocity is advantageous then why not just buy a 460 WBY and be done with it.
In the past fifty years thousands of African hunters and PH's killed tens of thousands of head of big game with it and the vast majority will tell you it worked great then and is even better today.
I'll bet there are currently as many detractors of the 375H&H now working in Africa as there are detractors of the 458.

--------------------
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