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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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DucofDeath3
.224 member


Reged: 31/12/03
Posts: 8
Why big bores?
      #6310 - 31/12/03 02:45 PM

I do most of my hunting with a .243 and a .223 and it all goes pretty well.

I dont understand the reqiurement for a big bore. Why do yous lot think it is reqiured to use with such overkill when a skilled shot can do it much better with a small caliber?

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Holmes
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 159
Loc: Wyoming, USA
Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6312 - 31/12/03 04:01 PM

Much BETTER with a small bore????

Where do you get that idea? If you and I both down an elk, you with your small bore and me with my big bore, how does the small bore end up BETTER if both shots are properly placed?

Quite honestly, your comments offend the hell out of me. I'm tired of being told how I should do it, or how the way I'm doing it is unnecessary.

And just what does the term 'overkill' mean??? Please define.

Let's now take a large mule deer at a distance of 150 yards. Can't get on the lungs so we'll have to anchor a shoulder. Me with my 50 calibre pill going along at 2150 and you with your 6mm bullet travelling 1000 fps faster.

Shall we compare blooded meat from that shoulder?

Big bores are fun and some just prefer them. Small bores are fun and some prefer them. So what's the problem?

I'm not going to get into dangerous game where stopping power and killing power are clearly differentiated.

By your logic, a truly skilled hunter would be using a 17 calibre. Wouldn't that be better than your overkill 243?

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6316 - 31/12/03 04:47 PM

DucofDeath3

Welcome to the forum. Interesting handle by the way, what does it mean?

I guess it would depend on what you hunt. Holmes has about said it. What exactly does overkill mean? How can something be more than dead? Also what do you mean by do it better? Do you think smaller bores are more accurate than a larger bores? What kind of animals do you hunt? Would you feel comfortable taking on a Range Bull or Water Buffalo with the 243? Under every possible condition?

Sometimes it is just fun to blow the crap out of something.





--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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470Nitro
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Reged: 17/09/03
Posts: 467
Loc: Madrid - Spain
Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6318 - 31/12/03 08:34 PM

I think you never had hunted any dangerous game dude . Do it and you'll think other way

--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight
talkin' 'bout guns and dreamin 'bout women
never had a plan just a livin' for the minute

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6324 - 01/01/04 12:07 AM

DucofDeath3

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

I started off with .222, .243, progressed to 30-06 and mostly shot vermin (Foxes, Kangaroos (under licence) and Pigs)
with the Foxes and Kangaroos Spotlighted at night from a vehicle. I though this would be all I needed.

Then as I got more and more into shooting, I progessed up to 9.3, 375 and on and on and on - now from 500 Nitro to .222.
From my interest in guns, I got more interested in hunting bigger game and now spend alot of time shooting Buffalo etc etc.
For others, it may be the other way around - get interested in hunting big game and then get a gun to suit.

I am sure you will find alot of people are like the above.

Until you hunt bigger game, I think it unlikely that you will understand.

Secondly, one thing that we have/had a problem here (and one I particulalry dislike) is with people shooting larger
game with inadequate (generally smaller) calibres ie - Large deer with 22-250's. As a result they have put minimum
calibres on certain animals - deer - 270 Cal. This is like Africa - Min 375 Cal for Dangerous game.

I am not saying that a deer can't be taken cleanly with a 22-250, particularly by experiened and accurate hunters,
but animals generally don't stand still and give or present perfect side on heart / lung shots.

Finally, I would like to invite you to come and hunt buffalo with your .222 / .243.

When the 1 Ton Buffalo Bull gets pissed off with you and decides to charge and stick you on the end of it's horns
and then flatten you against the nearest tree, you'll then see the reqiurement for a big bore.
Don't worry, I'd be backing you up with a 500 Nitro double.

Anyway, hope that give you something to think about - sweet dreams !!!

500 Nitro

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iqbal
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: Holmes]
      #6328 - 01/01/04 02:44 AM

The question probably is,why use a big bore on an animal which can easily be downed with a medium bore.For instance why should one use a 375 H&H MAG.on a deer or impala,it would only ruin the meat,why not use a 270 instead.For big game like cape buff.etc.a big bore is absolutely essential,no question about that.

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mickey
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Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
      #6333 - 01/01/04 08:12 AM

Igbal

I think you might find that the 270 does more damage than the 375 on Deer sized game.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
      #6335 - 01/01/04 08:30 AM

[quoteThe question probably is,why use a big bore on an animal which can easily be downed with a medium bore.For instance why should one use a 375 H&H MAG.on a deer or impala,it would only ruin the meat,why not use a 270 instead.For big game like cape buff.etc.a big bore is absolutely essential,no question about that. ]



Iqbal,in the first place a 375 H&H is not a big bore,but a medium bore, and your 243, and 270 are small bores.

The reason one uses a 375 on deer, or impala is because that is what he wants to use, in the USA! I can tell you from personal experience that the 270 will ruin far more meat than a 375 H&H, and the 243 will ruin more meat than the 270! Everyone has the wrong idea about meat damage, 90% of the meat damage is caused by velocity, not the size of the bullet! In Africa I have shot little 75 lb Impala with a 375 H&H 300 gr Nos Part, and lost no meat at all! Bored a clean .375 hole right through, and dropped him in his tracks. A 375 H&H @ 2500 fps with a 300 gr Nosler partition will barely open up on a 200 lb muledeer, but will punch a .375 hole right through, and you can eat right up to the hole. A 243 pumping 3000 fps with a 100 gr bullet will bruise a lot of shoulder, and you can forget a Texas heart shot with the 243, or 270, on a going away muley,or elk, because it will only gut shoot it, and/or ruin the hams. The 243 is my favorite for cross canyon muledeer hunting, but I will only lung shoot them. In regard to the Impala, the plains game rifle, used in Africa, absolutely must be enough to handle what ever you run into. Simply because you are only hunting Impala,makes no difference when you break through the jesse, and meet a Cape Buffalo face to face? If you are carrying a 243, or 270 what do you do? pray I say. You better hope he doesn't want to fight, and if he does, you might want to use that little rifle to commit suicide so it doesn't hurt so bad when he gets to you! If at close range, you might be in trouble with the 375 H&H as well!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Nick_Adams
.300 member


Reged: 20/12/03
Posts: 148
Loc: USA
Re: Why big bores? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #6337 - 01/01/04 11:21 AM

More to the point, for the ethical hunter there is no such thing as "overkill."

There is only a quick clean kill, a wounded animal or a miss. It is only the second possibility that concerns us.

Wounded game typically results, not from poor markmanship (which does account for the misses), but from not using "enough gun," i.e., a caliber appropriate for the species of game being hunted. Shot placement on the animal is important too, but if the caliber is insufficient the bullet simply won't have the mass, weight or velocity to incapacitate the animal immediately, even if a vital region is struck.

In some countries we now find restrictions on the minimum legal calibers allowed for taking various species. This, because in the past hunters shooting calibers inadequate for a quick kill wounded too many animals, thus permitting escape and needless suffering. Also, against dangerous game, underpowered cartridges sometimes resulted in casualties among hunters from a wounded animal that charged.

--------------------
________________________________

Remember ...

"Only accurate rifles are interesting."

.300 H&H.


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iqbal
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Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: Why big bores? [Re: mickey]
      #6406 - 03/01/04 02:41 AM

DUGABOY1 and Mickey,
I stand corrected,actually i have never shot a deer with a 375H&H and therefore assumed that it would ruin the meat as compared to a 270.Because of the nature of game around here the calibers most commonly used are the 270 and 7mm.mag.The 243 is used on deer alongwith the 22-250 and the other calibers mentioned on the ibex,horned sheep and nilghai.

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BigBore2
.224 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 12
Loc: central Tx. USA
Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
      #6416 - 03/01/04 09:42 AM

I like big vehicles, big drinks, big tits & big guns! Regards BigBore2

--------------------
Whiskey for my men & beer for my horses!

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khornet
.224 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 3
Re: Why big bores? [Re: BigBore2]
      #6419 - 03/01/04 12:33 PM

NitroX has asked lurkers why they don't post.first can't type 2 fingers takes a long time to say what I want to.Second not much formal education can't spell,punctuate,or form proper sentences easily.I have never hunted anything bigger than deer,probably never will.From my expierience a small caliber high velocity bullet[22cal] right behind the front leg broadside turns a deer's lungs into purple jello.So If a hunter was willing to pass until the perfect broadside shot would a 264win or a 7mmstw with a barnes xbullet do the samething to a buffalo or elephants lungs.Forget the charge the ph has a stopping rifle.Forget the cost of paying for the buff the ph shot.My only question is would the lungs be desrtoyed?Sure this hunter is a rich weirdo,but would it work?If my memory is correct Fred Bear's had to stop charges on the first two brown bears with a rifle befor he could claim the third as an archery kill.I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but would like a serious answer from somewone who has been there.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Why big bores? [Re: khornet]
      #6425 - 03/01/04 02:23 PM

khornet,

Welcome don't worry about not being able to type or spell. Getting your point across is what is important.

The short answer is not, not at least with a single bullet. Buffalo and Elephants are much, much tougher than any Deer. They are also much, much larger.

One of the reasons, there are many, for carrying a large caliber is for the shot that you can't plan for. An unexpected shot or even a charge. To rely on the skill and ability of any PH is foolish. It's your life and body, not his.


--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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nopride2
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6436 - 03/01/04 04:42 PM

I grew up reading Jack O'Conner and Elmer Keith. I sided with Jack. Used a .270. Accurate with any bullet or load. Killed everything I shot by picking my shots. Over the years I passed on several elk, because the shot angle was wrong for a .270, Texas heart shots and the like. I also realized I was carrying a 300 yard rifle, and all my game was taken within 100 yards. After 50 years I now say "Elmer is/was right" The big bullet starts out pre-expanded. It will penetrate most soft skin game full length. It plows through heavy bones. It usually leaves two large holes in a animal, with a better blood trail. Case in point; I shot an elk running through pecker poles at about 25 yards. I never saw the 4 inch diameter tree he was passing behind. Shot dead center through the tree and through the elk. The bullet, .45 cal. 350 gr. at 2000 fps. No small bore rifle would have made that shot. Did I throw my .270 away? No, it's my first big game rifle, a pre '64 M70 I bought new for just over a hundred bucks. I still use it, I'm just more aware of its limitations.

Dave

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iqbal
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Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: Why big bores? [Re: BigBore2]
      #6446 - 03/01/04 10:08 PM

Texans are famous for liking evrything big.Big tits are my weakness too.Texas is a beautiful state and the people are also very good.I am a regular visitor to Texas as i have a daughter living there.Maybe we meet one day.
Regards,Iqbal.

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BigBore2
.224 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 12
Loc: central Tx. USA
Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
      #6467 - 04/01/04 04:06 AM

Hi igbal, What part of Tx. do you come to? Regards BigBore2

--------------------
Whiskey for my men & beer for my horses!

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iqbal
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Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: Why big bores? [Re: BigBore2]
      #6476 - 04/01/04 06:14 AM

Hi Big Bore2,my daughter lives in Coppell,TX.its close to Dallas.I will be there again in May 2004 and will be staying for about a amonth.
Regards,Iqbal.

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Hauptjäger
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Loc: Hilo, Hawaii
Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6513 - 04/01/04 05:25 PM

DucofDeath3
Although one might say "live and let live and take all things in moderation." This principle does not hold true when hunting truly big game. Yes, a .243 and .223 can kill white tale and turkey well, I too have used both. However the simple fact is that small 55 to 100 grain bullet no mater the make sent out a velocities at or near 3000fps will not deliver enough "shock" or penetration to disable much less outright kill a large game. In North America moose, caribou, and brown bear are simply too big and tough to be taken with a .20 caliber weapon. Elk and mule dear could be taken as you describe however your effective range would be so greatly reduced you would almost never get a shot off.
It is true that some hunter will use bore size to compensate for a great many things, not the least of which is marksmanship. They allow the gun to do what they can not! Not to understate, shouting skills, a hunter mustn't develop a "little mans" complex, and tries to verbally "write a checks" his gun can not get him out of. In this case everyone involved louses: The animal is wounded, lost, and face a slow pointless death; the animal is wounded and charges the hunter and someone gets hurt if the PH can not provide a "charge stopping" shot with (yes you gusted it a "big bore rifle")
At the end of the day, regardless of your personal abilities / skills, your must select the caliber that is best suited to your intended target. "You don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight" when your life or reputation is at stake!
Hauptjäger


--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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DucofDeath3
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Reged: 31/12/03
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #6609 - 07/01/04 02:27 AM

I did not mean to upset anybody with my question.

I dont see the need to overdo things. If you can shoot a deer with a .243 as long as you shoot it well, why hit it with something so much bigger? Sure it may mean you have to get closer or wait for the deer to move into a better position but isn't thats what hunting is about?

I havent hunted in Africa or buffalo but they have been taken with lots of smaller calibers. 7x57, 7.62s, 8mm. A lot of the farmers there seem to use these sorts of rifles and do shoot buffalo and lion on their farms. They shoot their rifles all the time and know how they shoot. They also know the annimals they are shooting.

A lkot of the early exploeres also seemed to use smaller calibers. If it was so difficult how come they came through to write up their stories?

Meat damage is lessend by using mil ammo. I use it in my ,223 all the time. In the .243 a 90 grain solid also does the same job. Also results in minimum pelt damages.

I dont want to upset people but I do have a differnet opinion. I am willing to discuss and learn. I am interested in trying out some new ideas and was thinking of 44 or 444 in a lever action. I also think the ,270 is a good no bs rifle to own.

Edited by DucofDeath3 (07/01/04 02:32 AM)

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6618 - 07/01/04 05:03 AM

"Ducofdeath", (from the movie UNFORGIVEN ),

First off, I have no problem with useing a 243Win with hot 100 gr bullet loads for Muledeer, it is one of my all time favortes for that purpose, and have killed a couple of elk with the 243 as well, but I certainly wouldn't reccomend a 243 Win to anyone as an elk rifle! In most states where elk are wild, the 243 is illegal, anyway.

In the second place 7X57, 8x57, and 7.62(.308) are illegal to shoot lion, and buffalo in every country where they exist. Top this off by the fact that full patch millitery bullets are illegal for game animals in the Continental US. And in many states .22 centerfires, and 6mms (243) are illegal for deer, as well! There are real reason for these laws, and any one who knew anything about ethical hunting, would have already known that!

You are right, you do have the right to your own opinion, and you also have the right to act on that opinion, as long as it is legal, but in the examples you have offered, most are illegal, in most places,some in all places, and simply because they are legal in some places, doesn't make them a proper round for the game you state! That, my friend, is "FACT!"

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (07/01/04 05:08 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #6623 - 07/01/04 10:20 AM

In reply to:

"Why Big Bores?"




On large game you really don't have a choice. All this talk of shooting eg cape buffalo with military calibres, was probably done many years ago. And probably becuase most of the famrers you mention had no choice - ie that's their only rifle. I'm sure if they had a decent larger calibre at hand that is what they would choose to use.

Because it increases the safety factor. Shooting something dangerous with a marginal or inadequate calibre is asking for trouble.

On medium game because they are fun! Why not?

You asked some questions on the pig hunt Orion and I recently did. To do it differently. Sure a lot of Aussie hunters go out with 22s and 6mm's as well as 308s etc. We wanted to do it differently as this is a website with a big bore leaning.

A lot of Aussie hunters who go overseas also do the same thing. Practice, practice, paractice. What better way to practice than on running living moving targets. Much better than paper punching.

I hope you enjoy the site.

If you don't mind, what part of the world are you from?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Why big bores? [Re: mickey]
      #6716 - 09/01/04 06:57 PM

In reply to:

Sometimes it is just fun to blow the crap out of something.



BINGO!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Scartozi
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #11492 - 14/03/04 11:23 AM

I guess it depends on what you are hunting. There is a big difference in shooting something that just wants to run away and shooting something that wants to, and will, eat you if you don't take it out with the first or second shot.

I've never heard of a hunter getting mauled, trampled, or killed by a deer if he missed his first shot. If I had the the chance I would use my 458 lott on groundhog!...good practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a law that you can not hunt dangerous game in Africa with anything less than a 375?

Would you feel comfortable taking that 223 up to Alaska and going Grizzly hunting! Just my 2cents.

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Gibbs505
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Reged: 09/08/03
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #11496 - 14/03/04 01:45 PM

First of all, why not?

Secondly, the smaller rounds leave little margin for error when shooting any game. A larger round, less margin for error.

Third, practise, practise, practise. With any round that you are shooting.

Fourth, bullet placement, frequently, and it doses not matter in what particular manner you are hunting, there is little time to place a deliberate shot and the larger the bullet, the greater margin of error in a shot to be taken quickly.

fifthr, they are fun!!

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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luv2safari
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
      #11498 - 14/03/04 03:14 PM

Duco...

You remind me of the guy who walked into my store and wanted to but a 44 magnum for a side arm in Alaska. I asked him why...he said for protection against bears.

I pulled out a 2 1/2" S&W Mdl 19 and told him to buy that, instead. After listening to his insults for about ten minutes I told him to shut up and listen to reason.

He calmed down, then asked what I was trying to pull on him. I just laughed and told him that the short barrel revolver was far better to whip out in a hurry and get into his mouth so he could BLOW HIS FUCKING BRAINS OUT!

That's about all the good a handgun would do him...after he pissed the bear off real good by shooting it with a handgun.

You know, I always hear about the elk and such that guys have taken with their 6mm's and 25-06...but they NEVER tell anyone about the ones they emptied a magazine into that got away and died two mountains away...never recovered.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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