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Hollis500
.224 member


Reged: 17/08/06
Posts: 19
Loc: Surrey, England
Hollis 500 date and weight
      #62268 - 09/09/06 04:58 AM

I have an Isaac Hollis 500 serial no 108114. I guess from other stuff it is in the range 1870-1900ish. Anyone able to give me any more precisse date info

It weighs 9 3/4 lbs and I think thats a bit light, I am getting it restocked and want to end up around 10 1/2 lbs (stock is too short for me anyway)

Any thoughts on is this abt right to help cut down recoil a bit, and if all the wood doesn't get me there whether to incorporate a bit of lead in stock or fore end - I assume I want to get as much weight as pos between my hands as with shotgun??

Thanks for your thoughts

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Hollis500


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: Hollis500]
      #62270 - 09/09/06 05:37 AM

Hollis:

You're way off on the date. There is an I. Hollis .450/.400 for sale at Champlin Firearms with serial number 100,561. This rifle is an original nitro with 1904 rule Birmingham marks with no date code, meaning that it was proved between 1904 and 1921. Your gun would seem to be much later. I assume yours is a .500 Nitro, which wasn't introduced until roughly 1900. What do the proof marks look like? If it was proved in Birmingham, I would imagine your gun would be late enough to have the date code mark, which appears as a pair of crossed swords with a letter in the upper angle and a numeral in the lower angle. This would tell you exactly when it was proved.

To my knowledge, the I. Hollis records did not survive.

If this is an original .500 Nitro - JayZUZ! 9.75 lbs?? A British built pre-war .500 Nitro double that light would be unusual in the extreme. I have to wonder if this rifle an original Nitro. The weight would be correct for a BPE. The .400 I mentioned above is a full pound heavier. The proof marks on this piece need careful examination.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #62285 - 09/09/06 11:50 AM

400NE:
Your assumptions on the weight will be correct for sure, the gun is invariably a BP Express. Pre-WW2 British-built .500 Nitros under 11 lbs simply do not exist.

9 3/4 lbs is the industry-standard 'correct' weight for a .500 Express. Obviously you already know this, Hollis500, hence your date estimate of 1870 to 1900.

Does this suggest a break in sequential numbering for the Hollis guns? A pity the records are not available.

Certainly a photo or two would help, especially the proof-marks on the barrel-flats as suggested. Any extras like whether ULH, TLH, or hammerless, if a hammer-gun whether the action is rebounding, and whether the hammers are bolted or not, might help narrow-down whether it was an 'early' or 'late' period gun.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: Marrakai]
      #62302 - 09/09/06 03:54 PM

Marrakai:

Hollis posted in a previous thread that this rifle is a boxlock. As to the number being out of sequence, I suppose anything is possible. However, the likelihood of a much later number being substantially earlier in date would seem low.

I've seen a couple of Liege built boxlocks in .500 Nitro that were in the 9.5 lb range, but the Brits just didn't do that. I'm wondering about a re-bore or re-barrel. Only the proof marks will tell the tale.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #62303 - 09/09/06 03:58 PM


400

When I first read his post my thoughts were exactly the same as yours and Marrakai's, I just could post them.

I have seen a early european 470 which is also lightweight compared to English DR's of that period and I own, have owned and handled alot of English Big Bore doubles and none are in that light weight category.

As to an out of sequence number, it is well out and I think more likely a reproof, rebore or rebarrel as you say.

We will have to wait for more photos.

500 Nitro


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Hollis500
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Reged: 17/08/06
Posts: 19
Loc: Surrey, England
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62307 - 09/09/06 07:15 PM

I'm seeing Ron tomorrow who is doing all the work for me and take some photos - will then need coaching to load them up

from memory it is birmingham proofed (apart from latest NP from London following actioning back on face work Ron has just done)

it is also def proofed for cordite, stamped .500 and various other marks - I had assumed so far it was made as a 500 nitro But agree with you all, the weight is way off

Boxlock, hammerless ejector


It looks almost identical to one in the last Holts sale - described here, even same crappy engraving - tigers etc

altho this was an A Hollis

†A. HOLLIS & SON .500 (3 1/4in.) NITRO EXPRESS BOXLOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no.15056, 24in. nitro chopperlump barrels with matt sight rib, open leaf sights for 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards, ramp mounted block foresight with lift-up moon sight, tubes engraved 'A.HOLLIS, LONDON RIFLE MAKERS TO H.R.H.THE DUKE OF CONNAUGHT', 3 1/4in. chambers, treble-grip action with removable striker bars, manual safety, action engraved with naïve depictions of elephants, buffalo and lion, scooped-backed action, 15 1/2in. well-figured pistolgrip stock including 1/2in. rubber recoil pad, cheekpiece, sling eyes, metal pistolgrip-cap, weight 12lbs. 10oz. in its leather case
The history of the weapon prior to 195 9/60 is unknown
The rifle was discovered in a cycle/gun shop called Tatos Brothers in the little farming town of Gwelo (now Gweru - Zimbabwe) in what was then Southern Rhodesia where it was offered for sale on behalf of a farmer (name unknown) and it was purchased by Mr. Paul Coetsee in 1959-60
Mr. Coetsee worked for the Game Department in Southern Rhodesia. His responsibilities included the control of problem animals and the control of the spread of the Tsetse Fly disease. Between 1964 and 1970 the .500 Hollis was to be used almost exclusively on elephant control in the then Southern Rhodesian Game department. On the southern banks of the Kariba Dam especially, elephant carriers of the Tsetse fly had to be controlled to limit the spread of the disease and in the Gokwe and Omay Tribal Trust areas, problems with bull elephant crop raiders kept the rifle in regular usage.
The .500 rifle became well known to VIP foreign guests of the then Prime Minister Mr. Ian Douglas Smith during hunting safaris conducted in the Gokwe area. Among the dignitaries was the late sir Archibald James from London whom hunted his last elephant (accompanied by Mr. Coetsee) at the age of about 80 years. The late Prime Minister, John Voster of South Africa and many dignitaries from the USA, Germany and South Africa were also accompanied during hunts using the same rifle
Of his rifle, Mr. Coetsee said 'the Hollis .500 served me well, having put down about 1000 elephants with brain shots, many buffalos and a considerable number of lions. Bull elephant that were shot with this rifle ranged from 50lbs. per side to 100lbs. per side.'
Please note VAT at 5% is applicable on the hammer price and buyers premium
See illustration on page 189 £8000-12000




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Hollis500


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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: Hollis500]
      #62311 - 10/09/06 01:09 AM

Is there a 4 digit number on the under rib where the forearm attaches to the barrels?

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Rusty
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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: Hollis500]
      #62315 - 10/09/06 01:57 AM

Hollis:

Get photos of both the barrel flats and the water table if you can.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Hollis500
.224 member


Reged: 17/08/06
Posts: 19
Loc: Surrey, England
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63265 - 01/10/06 03:53 AM

OK now have photos of flats, barrels etc of the Hollis - all in white and ready for work

How do I get photos on here??

Directions appreciated


Rusty

There are no nos on the under rib other than serial nos, the letters JS (Barrel and action maker I assume as JA appears inside action too) and an A&T stamped on the left barrel only

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Hollis500


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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: Hollis500]
      #63269 - 01/10/06 06:00 AM

If you can email them to me I will post them for you!

rkmojo@aol.com

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: Rusty]
      #63290 - 01/10/06 09:26 PM

Here are pictures of the 500.






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Rusty
We band of brothers!

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: Rusty]
      #63296 - 02/10/06 01:35 AM

Hi all

Excuse stupidity but,this one has me......

Cordite and nitro,whats the difference? pressure difference,how much? Cordite nearer to black powder in PSI and power output/velocity?

Ben


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: empirevr]
      #63315 - 02/10/06 05:51 AM

There is no difference. Cordite = Nitro.

There's black and semi-smokeless (there's no such thing as "smokeless", all "'smokeless" propellants produce particulate yield - smoke - during combustion. The correct term is "'smokeless" which is simply a contraction of "semi-smokeless").

Semi-smokeless propellants are generically referred to as "Nitro" because of their composition. Semi-smokeless propellants used in small arms are either single-base (nitrocellulose) or double-base (nitrocellulose, with nitroglycerine adsorbed into the colloidal paste). Cordite Mark I was 37% nitrocellulose, 58% nitroglycerine, and 5% mineral jelly - a double-base semi-smokeless Nitro propellant.

Under the 1887, 1896, 1904 and 1925 proof rules, Nitro proof rifles were marked with service load they were proved for, including the name and amount of the semi-smokeless propellant proved for and the heaviest bullet used in the normal load. The 1954 rules of proof eliminated this mark and simply marks the proof pressure instead. The above rifle has simply been re-proved. So, "Cordite 80 - 570 MAX" is the service load mark from the 1904 rule marks on the rifle. The "3250 BAR" mark is the new pressure mark from the recent re-proof. Both marks represent the same load. There is no difference.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63323 - 02/10/06 07:49 AM

400nitro

Thankyou.

Is black powder then better for your gun? i.e. lower pressures etc?

Ben


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: empirevr]
      #63338 - 02/10/06 11:24 AM

Black does not automatically produce lower pressure than nitro. Remember that the Nitro for Black loadings of black powder express cartridges were loaded with Cordite. These were specifically intended for use in rifles proved for black only and thus were not permitted to produce pressures higher than black did. The Nitro for Black loadings ususally pushed slightly heavier bullets at somewhat higher velocities than did the black powder loads, but at the same pressure.

Loaded to the same pressures, there's nothing wrong with nitro in a black powder gun, but black is traditional. Black is corrosive as hell, nitro is not. Take your pick.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63350 - 02/10/06 03:04 PM

I remember a pressure test in a gun magazin years ago for the 44-40 WCF when they get 40 grains swiss blackpowder in the case( dont know what the trick was) and this load was over the CIP maximum for this cartridge

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Hollis 500 date and weight [Re: pwm]
      #63375 - 02/10/06 11:25 PM

I see.....

Nitro for black is sometimes known as 'light nitro' isnt it??

I noticed the bore damage on these old BP guns,is pretty severe all too often.......

Thanks

Ben


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