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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
DR Cheap
      #62164 - 06/09/06 08:45 AM

I was surfing around and came accross this German Guild DR at Westley Richards. All I know is what is on the page but it seems like a decent DR for little money.

I would be tempted but my meager funds are going to recutting the engraving on the Rigby.

Bill

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: DR Cheap [Re: banzaibird]
      #62165 - 06/09/06 09:49 AM

I called about that one last week or the week before

Looks like a sleeve job or even a chamber sleeve job.
The guy I spoke with there didn't mention anything like that either, so I didn't bother calling back on it.

I'd recommend that anyone thinking about it make sure they ask a lot of really good questions, and have it sent to someone like JJ to have it looked over stem to stern.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
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Re: DR Cheap [Re: tinker]
      #62179 - 07/09/06 01:17 AM

As I said Tinker I know nothing but what was on the page. I'm curious as to why you think it was a sleeve job though? Especially if the guy on the other end never made mention of it. Just wondering it very well could be I was just trying to see what I missed that led you to beleive this.

Bill

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: DR Cheap [Re: tinker]
      #62182 - 07/09/06 01:59 AM

Tinker,

I would also be interested in why you think it is a sleeve job or chamber job.

You are talking about the 7.65 Guild Gun ?

I think the reason it is cheap is a plain, boxlock action.
low end wood, Non ejector, funny calibre -
7.65 cal - which would make brass hard to find and
maybe too thin in the barrels to take out to 9mm.

Why spend $3500 on that when you can buy a new
SxS 9.3 x 74R for similar ?

500 Nitro

Edited by 500Nitro (07/09/06 02:02 AM)

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: DR Cheap [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62184 - 07/09/06 03:12 AM

500Nitro and Tinker,

When I had a chance this morning I went and looked at the pics again. On my computer here at home I get a liitle more detail. It kind of looks like ther are lines that would indicate a monoblock but they aren't straight so they could just be marks. Not sure.

500Nitro,

I figured the price was cheap for the same reasons you listed. However here 7.65x53 (assuming that it's this cartridge) are pretty easy to find dies and brass. Power wise it's in the between the 300 Savage and the 308 Win.

Bill

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
My thoughts [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62185 - 07/09/06 03:18 AM

I'd called on it, asked for photos of the proofs, breeches, flats, and muzzles.

I've deleted them, so if you want to see what I'm basing my assumption on you'll need to call in and request some photos for your own perusal.

If you do go ahead and do so, note the above mentioned features of the gun.
Also note that the chambering is more likely 7x65 and not 7.65



500N, to answer your question
"Why spend $3500 on that when you can buy a new
SxS 9.3 x 74R for similar ?"

For one, on my end of this thing there is no why.
I'm not looking to buy it, nor was I looking to buy it.
Someone asked me to call the shop and ask about it.

Also, if it is indeed 7x65, a good reason would be that it's not a 9.3x74R
This thing, if it is a 7mm rifle, might be a lot lighter and livelier than the mighty 9.3

A question for you.
Who has a 9.3x74R SxS double rifle with two triggers for four grand new?
Sounds like a deal!


I'll see if I can get the photos from the guy I'd sent them to, I'll post them if he's still got them in his email box.



--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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WildCattle
.275 member


Reged: 22/03/06
Posts: 95
Loc: Northern California
Re: DR Cheap [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62186 - 07/09/06 03:21 AM

It might just be a 7x65R which is very common in Europe and a very good round as well.
WC

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Those images... [Re: tinker]
      #62187 - 07/09/06 03:31 AM








So.
Make your own judgements.
I'm interested to hear what y'all have to say on this.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Those images... [Re: tinker]
      #62191 - 07/09/06 03:58 AM

Cheater... . See I was making underinformed judgements on the few pics on the website. As I'm sure you can tell it was obviously worked on. Either just the chamber or the whole barrel. It is also chambered for a rimmed cartridge, so that leaves out the 7.65x53 I was thinking.

I'd enjoy any more photos if you have them.

Bill

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Those images... [Re: tinker]
      #62192 - 07/09/06 03:58 AM


Tinker,
My previous post came across a bit strong. Apologise.

Re 7mm, yes, I like 7mm DR's - but at 9lbs that's quite heavy.
However as is always the case with DR's, it comes down to the
fit, feel and BALANCE so it might feel light and good in the hands.
Looks like a chamber sleeve job to me.
Well, all other DR's I've seen with chamber sleeve jobs
have looked the same. Don't you hate it when they
don't describe things 100%.

I think they could have cleaned the bloddy gun before they took the photos - it looks like metal shavings with doesn't inspire confidence.

Re 9.3 x 74R for $3500 - Remington (I think it is Fabarm)
have a SxS 9.3 x 74R for $3500 amd I have heard they are selling well. Don't know much more about them but they are a BL
and not sure if they are ejector or not.

Just my 2cents.


500 Nitro

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: DR Cheap [Re: banzaibird]
      #62193 - 07/09/06 04:03 AM


banzaibird.

IF it was 7.65, brass and dies are one thing but what about bullets ???

IF it has been sleeved, barrel or chambers, it doesn't look like it has been REPROOFED which is probably why it is for sale in the US and not Europe since no oone has to adhere to any proof laws in the US - whch is a pity.

500 Nitro

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Ahh... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62196 - 07/09/06 04:19 AM

500N-

No worries here

I also noticed the lack of re-proof or repair proofs.
That and no bushings and no vents for the strikers, I'd want them for the 7x65R

I think this thing might have been a 16b shotgun to start.
Did you notice the diameter of the peened circles on the standing breech?








--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: DR Cheap [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62197 - 07/09/06 04:39 AM

500Nitro,

Bullets aren't a problem. You can use any 303 British, 32 Win, etc bullets they are all .312. The 7.65x53 I have measures a bit larger at .313 but shoots the slightly undersized bullets just fine.

Bill

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Ahh... [Re: tinker]
      #62199 - 07/09/06 05:59 AM


Tinker

Yes, I did notice the circles. The thing is that the proof marks on the flats are all original so not sure about 16b. Euopean DR's and guns are not my forte anyway and I really couldn't be bothered with alot of them low end ones - although I have one.

banzaibird - thanks - I should have known that or looked up my reference books except they are packed away at present.

For both of you - I look at old DR's that are not flash / need some work and one of my criteria is "if I want to get out of it easily can I do so for the same money I paid for it." In the above case I think it may be hard to sell.

Well for the one we are loooking at, would you really recommend it to a new user who wants a small call DR ? I would feel hesitant in selling it to a newbie who didn't know much.

Secondly, even though 9.3 is bigger than 7mm, with all the newer, cheaper (but still good) DR's from Europe on the market, it doesn't look that good value and I am sure Fabrm or others (Chapuis already has them) will produce 7mm or other small cal DR's.

Hope this explains my position.

500 Nitro

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Ahh... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62200 - 07/09/06 07:10 AM

Gentlemen
While I would not call it cheap, I think the best buy in a double rifle today is a Chapuis. I like the 9,3x74R but you can get them in 7x65 or even 30-06, however I think the 9,3 is the best double calibre under 40 cal.

The Chapuis is around 5K five or take a few hundred.
It weighs 7.25 lbs without scope.
I have found it to be one of the best hunting rifles on the planet.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Ahh... [Re: NE450No2]
      #62202 - 07/09/06 07:20 AM


NE450No2

Just a quick question.

Why would you not call a Chapuis cheap ?
I agree that they are good value.

I know they are not built to the high end English level,
but until the Europeans came along with lower cost DR's
not much was available.

It seems it doesn't matter how much they cost, everyone seems to think they are still expensive.

I have even heard the same comment made about the Fabarm 9.3,
Baikal O/U DR's which retail for under Aus $1500.

Just my HO.

500 Nitro

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
On words of caution... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62204 - 07/09/06 08:05 AM

500N-

The guy who asked me to look into this one is looking for his first double rifle.
For the reasons noted above I suggested he keep looking.

Too many questions on this rifle.
Not enough information offered on the front end of the advertisment of the rifle to account for what I saw in the photos.

Now for 9.3x74R SxS double rifles with two triggers which are available to the U.S. market and fit into a price range similar to what this rifle is offered at, I'm still interested to hear what's available.
The French utility grade SxS will cost at least twice what they're asking for this little guild gun.

I haven't seen anything new and fitting of that description (or used for that matter) in the 7mm up to 9.3mm size class.



And I have to agree, the 9.3x74R double rifles are wonderful.
I've been handling and shooting a very nice clamshell Timner lately.
What a honey!



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: On words of caution... [Re: tinker]
      #62205 - 07/09/06 08:10 AM


tinker,

I don't like when sellers don't put all the info up front
and just use a cheap price to get people to call.
I tend to walk away as well.

Look up Remington / Fabarm in SxS 9.3 DR.
They are available here and so should be in the US.

500 Nitro

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Ahh... [Re: tinker]
      #62206 - 07/09/06 08:12 AM

In reply to:

I think this thing might have been a 16b shotgun to start.
Did you notice the diameter of the peened circles on the standing breech?



Tinker,
Yeah, I agree.
Plenty of evidence that it was originally a shottie.
Wide bore spacing at the muzzels, wide rib, top rib joined where it meets the quarter rib, large diameter case head marks on breechface, sleeves showing on barrel face, non original extractor, crown over "w" indicating choked barrel, etc etc.

I do think there is a chance that it was originally a 20 gauge.

Note the ridiculous position of the rear scope mount lever which appears as though it could prevent the gun from closing.

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Ahh... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62207 - 07/09/06 08:31 AM

First I'd like to note I wasn’t recommending that anyone buy this gun. It merely seemed like it was a Cheap DR. I thought someone might be interested.

The out of proof thing we hit on before. It's not the end of the world. As I've said before I'd be willing to bet that very few people send a gun back after it's been re-jointed. Yet any gun that was worked on this way is out of proof. Now granted this looks to be much larger scale of work but out of proof is only one of many things that should be considered.

Second I've never seen any of the Fabarm u/o for sale here. The Baikal's aren't even close to what I'd call quality. Plus they are u/o as well. I didn't even see a sxs on Fabarms webpage. I'd be interested in a new made double sxs for $3,300.

While the Chapuis is a nice rifle, lets face it $5,000 is too much to spend for a gun for a lot of people. I basically work on an Ambulance everyday. Have for the last 15 years. I make $35,000 a year. For the area I live that is high pay for my job. It's sad that people aren’t willing to pay those who go out and save lives daily more than they are willing to pay a guy to come and unclog their toilet. That’s just the way things are, I do my job because I love doing it. However, to me $5,000 is a lot of money.

I know this grade of rifle isn't your or most people's forte' here on the site. I love looking at the rifles you guy's share with us, but in reality there will never be anything like that in my future. So the cheaper rifles or homebuilts are all I can manage. Thus why I was trying to share this with anyone else out there who is in the same circumstances I'm in. I thought maybe that someone else might be able to get into their first and possibly only DR for this amount of money.

Please don't take this as a personal attack against anyone. I'm just trying to explain my thoughts and reasons for posting. I'm glad there are people out there who can afford to keep the old treasures in good condition and can afford to commission new DR's so future generations possibly have more old treasures. I just wanted to make it clear that $5,000 is a large amount of money to some. In fact the $1,800 difference from this rifle to a new Chapuis is a lot of money to some.

I guess I should just go back to lurking as I've been thoroughly outclassed.

Bill

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Ahh... [Re: banzaibird]
      #62208 - 07/09/06 08:52 AM


banzaibird,

Good post.

I would like to explain my side a bit further. Yes, $5000 is alot oif money, so is $3500. What I was saying was that it doesn't seem to matter what price a new DR is, you still get people who say it is expensive when they are not compared to others.

4 - 10 years ago, 450/400's could be had for $6000 and everyone said that was Overpriced - here in Aus and in the US. Now try to find a good one under $10,000.

And the people who save lives should be paid more !!!

500 Nitro

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Ahh... [Re: banzaibird]
      #62210 - 07/09/06 09:02 AM

Bill,
The rifle appears to be quite well done actually, and if the condition of the blue is any indication it appears to have been used or at least handled or carried a fair bit.
As you rightly pointed out it is VERY well priced and I can tell you that if it was in Aus I'd be having a real good look at it myself.
What ever you do please don't go back to just lurking as you haven't been outclassed in any way whatsoever.
When it comes to doubles we are all learning here.
I shoot a few shottie to rifle conversions myself for the very same reason you mentioned, ie they are affordable.

Thanks for posting this mate.
Cheers

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
The Remington [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62211 - 07/09/06 09:06 AM

I don't think it's available to us here in the US yet.
That and I don't think they're going to offer it to us in the 9.3
Only 30-06 and 45-70


Thanks for the note on that though.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Caste structure, product descriptions, budget... [Re: banzaibird]
      #62212 - 07/09/06 09:28 AM

Bill-

The guy who was looking at this rifle is working on a malaria cure, he doesn't make much money either.
I'm not sure what you're getting at when it comes to class or being outclassed. I sure didn't mean to insult anyone in regard to thier social or economic stature here.

I put my thumbs down on this one due to the poor representation of it on a very well-known maker's site.
Shouldn't they know better than to miss these details, and then to omit them in the description?

When you're looking to put real cash down on a rifle, and I consider $3500 real cash, you should think of where that money's going. That and at that point you should at least start to consider the liquidity of your asset. Will you be able to get your money back? You should.

I thought that this rifle warranted more than a cursory glance, and I looked into it well enough to get the photos and explore the situation. Explored it well enough to offer an opinion on it to a friend.
That opinion was this --

That little rifle brings a lot of questions up for me, and the seller didn't have much to say about those things in thier offering description.
If you're serious about looking into it for yourself, have someone who knows a f-load about the build of a double rifle handle and inspect it for you before you pay.
And make double damn sure there's a chamber-casting, bore-slugging, range day a-shooting period agreed upon with the seller in the sales agreement.



Who knows, it might just be the best thirty-five hundred buck deal on a double rifle this year!
I'm just not willing to put my money on it to find out.

--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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WildCattle
.275 member


Reged: 22/03/06
Posts: 95
Loc: Northern California
Re: Caste structure, product descriptions, budget. [Re: tinker]
      #62213 - 07/09/06 10:00 AM

Hello all,

The list price of a Chapuis UGEX with ejectors is 3370 Euros (18.6% refundable VAT *included*). Take a look at:
Jeannot Chapuis
Please note that the above link shows that a 10% discount is available.
You could go to Paris, negotiate on a couple of them , and import them to the US for about $4000 each including importation fees.
Heck, you could even present the trip as a gift to your wife!
Or you can do it over the phone.
Or you can give a fat commission to a US importer.
The double rifle is the weapon of choice in most of Europe and hunters there have much less money than here. Hence, the low price.

WC

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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