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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape
      #59121 - 22/06/06 06:19 AM









This is going to be a 600 NE boxlock by Trevor Proctor - another masterpiece. Jonathan will give those interested more details.

Sorry for the delay in posting this - I have been busy.


--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Grizzly
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #59127 - 22/06/06 08:15 AM

She's going to be a beauty! And by the looks of her, will last forever.

Nice!

--------------------
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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: Grizzly]
      #59152 - 22/06/06 11:55 PM

Jonathan,

Can you tell us about the forging, how it is made and fitted?

And do you know of any advantages/disadvantages when comparing forgings to actions made from a block of steel cut on a CNC mill?


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JTOMLINSON
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: 500grains]
      #59216 - 24/06/06 06:44 AM

Dan

That is a good question, that deserves a good answer, sadly loss of grey cells over the 27 or so years since I did my engineering theory has not helped my ability to give a full technical (metalurigical) description of the differences between a drop forging and an action machined from bar stock save that in simplest form the grain structure of a forging flows with the variances of angle etc rather than cuts throught the grain as a machining will.

The techinacal expalnation would cover the grain structure of the steel but the theory is that a forging gives a stronger end product than a machining, an contemporary example of this would be a spanner, for reasons of strength in the jaw area spanners are often (almost always) made from drop forgings rather than machined.

Sorry this is vague, some of the more technically minded will hopefully come to my aid here, terms such as pearlite, cementite, marstenite etc come vaguely back to mind but not with sufficient clarity to offer a scientific reasoning.

The action forging will facilitate an anson and Deeley boxlock as you will have spotted. The forging itself is one from Phillipsons who make action forgings for all the English trade (forgings have always been the basis of ALL doubles rifles historically), they make actions for H&H. Purdeys, Boss, William Evans et al.

Rough machining of the action is done by Phillipsons, the standing breach, and table are milled, as is the slot for the lump. The hinge pin is solid and machined by way of a dividing head, the pin itself is a none removable one, so any re-jointing if ever needed would have to be by way of spray hook method and not simply replacing of the pin.

The race way for the bolts is broached through the action, again by Phillipsons as few makers have facility to broach.

The barrels will be let into the action by milling and cuttng the bites in the lump, Trevor does this all by first principle machining as he has no CNC facility and the loop will be cut for an Anson push rod forend release.

Shaping of the action will be by the usual method of chiseling and filing of the fences and bolsters.

You will see from the pictures of the barrel that the reinforcing and rib keel around the reinforcing have still to be filed to mate up with the fences of the action, this again is hand work nearly all of which will be done by file and striking iron.

THe rear rib and front sight ramp have been shaped with spear points and tinned to the rib, they will be machined to accept the one standing one folding rear sight and the combined moon protector foresight one the bulk of the actioning work has been completed.

The rifle will have intercepting sears to prevent the chance of double discharge from the abundant recoil. and also to permit none too heavy trigger pulls. The front trigger wil be articulated not that the 5/162 travel will save the finger from a bruising here!

Incidentally in present form the barrels weigh in at 8 1/4 lbs, all up weight of the completed rifle is unlikely to be less than 14 lbs and possibly close to 16 lbs.

some further photos will be posted shortly of the stock blank and other action parts, again only forgings at present, I thought it may be of interest to see just how much of a transition there is from rough forging to finished action.

The question you seek an answer to re the strengths and virutes of a forging over a machining is a difficult one for me to answer, of tradition and even today, English rifles are built from forgings for which much follow up work must be done, this in soime way imparts the extra cost over a machined from barstock action.

As for strength, the above exposition is the theory, certainly there are guns built today almost exclusively from CNC machinings, I think Mr. Searcy may do just this, and as far as I am able to tell over this side of the pond, they work just fine.

Another feature of this rifle will be a third bite in the standing breach with a sliding bolt drawn by the top lever, so when the gun is in battery the third bite will be locked, again many variations of a third bolting system existed over here, the Greener cross bolt and various forms of "dolls head" extension to name but two.

As with the CNC machinings a number of modern rifles appear without this form of bolting and again seem to work just fine, I suppose in some ways also we have better grade steels than makers of 80 plus years had access to so actions are stonger and the need for extra locking may well be reduced.

hope this goes some way to explaining things


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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #59221 - 24/06/06 07:50 AM

Jonathan:

Amazing post and full of great information, although some of it when right over my head.

If I may make a request/comment, if you would be kind enough to continue documenting the progress of your DR, I think it would be a TREMENDOUS resource for everyone here as it will show, step-by-step, how a best grade English DR is made.

And it will give us all something to drool over ;-)

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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JTOMLINSON
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: clark7781]
      #59223 - 24/06/06 08:01 AM

Clark

It is my hope to be able to post pictures along the way upto regulating and hopefully in use in the field, I am to a large degree reliant on the kindness of other forumites in posting the pics for me as I am a computer idiot and my eyes glazed when i read of the technique to post pics.

Mehul has a few pictures of another of Trevor's rifles that is way ahead of my own, this time a .470 boxlock in the white ready for stocking, i think he is to post that shortly.

now off to bed as it is 1100 pm here and i have been up since 4 am

Regards


Jonathan


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bulldog563
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #59236 - 24/06/06 12:03 PM

Thanks for the excellent post... Look forward to seeing the progress. Also if for some reason you want a picture posted and Mehul is unavailable I would be happy to post them for you or explain how to post them yourself. Just drop me a PM.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
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mickeyModerator
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: bulldog563]
      #59237 - 24/06/06 01:46 PM

Jonathan

A most excellent post. I'm looking forward to following this as well.

Very interesting.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #59246 - 24/06/06 10:21 PM

Jonathan,

The interest of other members is a reflection of my own. Please document progress at each step.

I already have a question. I am surprised to see the ribs laid before the barrels have been regulated. Is this the normal procedure? Shows my ignorance, I'm sure.

Thanks,
Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JTOMLINSON
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: CptCurl]
      #59288 - 26/06/06 08:39 AM

Curl

You pose a logical question to which the answer is yes, the ribs always go one before regulating.

I suppose there are 2 reasons for this.

The first being that the sight bases go ontop of the ribs and as the sights are needed to regulate the rifle, the ribs of necessity must be present.

Secondly the chopper lump barrels are brazed at the lumps, you will see the excess brass spelter on the photos of the lump area in the pics posted by Mehul, the remainder of the barrels are free to the muzzles ( although it is usual for a barrel maker to make up some small ties from pieces of rolled up tin can which they use as spacers and solder them in between the two tubes as sort og gussets), the purpose of the ribs is both to hold the barrels together and also I suppose to keep them apart, the ribs impart the strength into the barrels.

Once the ribs are laid however the barrels become much more rigid but not necessarily inclined into the right place to regulate on the target, this is the painstaking bit.
The regulator must heat up the end of the barrel/rib area sufficient to permit movement to be applied to the end of the barrels by either adjusting the wedge (visible i nthe picture) or by raising or lowering one of the tubes to adjust for elevation of the resulting group.

Driving the wedge into the barrels forces the muzzles apart slightly and conversly drawing out the wedge will permit the muzzles to move together, heat is usually applied to this area in a conservative manner so as not to cause the entiore length of solder along the rib to melt. It is usual for the regulator to heat up two near bore size metal bars then place them into the muzzles, the heat transfer by conduction passes into the tubes sufficiently to melt the solder and permit the muzzle to be adjusted as required.

In reality movement of the barrel is effected by applying pressure and effectively bending the tube.

The process is a little hit or miss as it is often easy to over compensate with the movements required, this is the skilled part and one that can take some time to acihieve correctly, regulators who do a number of such rifles do get a feel for what adjustments are needed which can assist in speeding up the process.

I supose in the case of a .600 bore however it will be as much a case of the fortitude and ability of the regulator in absorbing the copious recoil from a number of rounds sufficient to see the job through that will be the biggest single headache



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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #59292 - 26/06/06 10:33 AM

Jonathan:

Another amazing post - I was most facinated with the part about heating bore sized metal rods and placing them in the barrels to aide in regulation. It may show my ignorance, but I have never heard of that technique.

If I may ask a question: Can you please share, in this thread, the background on your decision to have this individual build you a .600 DR?

Why a .600? (not that I'm questioning it, I would like one too one day - that is, after I have shot my .577 a few hundred times ;-)

Do you have a piece of wood picked out for the stock?



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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4seventyModerator
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #59299 - 26/06/06 07:28 PM

JT,
I agree with the others here that this is a very good thread indeed!
There will be many here including myself who will be keen to follow the building of this rifle.


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JTOMLINSON
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: clark7781]
      #59300 - 26/06/06 08:13 PM

Hi Clark

You ask the question that every one who owns someting a little out of the ordinary dreads! good question though

The choice of the builder was simple. Trevor Proctor has been a friend for 18 or so years, he has built for me a number of rifles, all left handed from .270 - through to .500 Jeffery. (sorry forgot to mention the .600 will be a L/H).

Trevor has been in business for over 30 years and in that time has earned a deserved reputation here in that he builds fine rifles and shotguns, only to best quality.

He has a following the world over, you will not hear too much of him in the U.S as his limited production output each year is more than taken up with English clients, however he presently has 5 big calibre magazine rifles under production for Kenya including 2 in .500 Jeffery for the KWS.

A number of contemporary African PH's have rifles either built, or in the case of older doubles, re-built by Trevor.

Names such as Nicky Blunt, John DuPlooy, Abie DuPlooy, Geroge Angelides, Farouk Qureshi, Richard Moller, Mark Jenkins (KWS), Richard Bonham, Gerard Miller, Charlie Wheeler, Tony Fitzjohn (Former assistant of Geroge Adamson) are but a few of his clients.

Trevor also is a shooter, with approximately 20 trips to Africa behind him and a keen deer stalker he has first hand experience of not only what a gun should look like in classic styling, but also what is expected of it under extreme environmental conditions.

Client's in the U.K range from the lowly like myself through to members of the Royal Family.

Mehul has kindly posted some other pictures elsewhere on this site of other work by Trevor including some fine magazine rifles and doubles under build.

As for the calibre, I certainly could have picked a more conventional and arguably far more practical calibre, either in .470 or .500 N.E ( Trevor has two remaining forgings for such calibres left on the shelf and capacity to take further orders for them, these are becoming increasingly rare to source nowadays).

I am already well served with medium to heavy calibre magazine rifles in .375 and .500 and saw no reason to duplicate here.

The .600 was actually, truth be told, as much a romantic idea harboured from an early age and one that has stuck in my mind for many years as a yearning to own such a rifle, I certainly do not need one, infact arguably I don't need any of my rifles, but need alone is no reason not to own one, is it?

The rifle once completed I will hopefully be tried out on buffalo, but the rifle will also be as much an investment and pleasure to own as much as a piece of fine art or oil painting will be.

Sadly these days hand built double rifles here in the U.K cost considerably, I suppose Holland and Holland would be the zenith of such rifle builders, their price for a new Royal Double De-luxe in .600 with sales tax wouldbe approaching, if not exceeding 100,000.00 ($175,000.00U.S). Too much for my humble pockets, that is another reason why Trevor is building it, his prices are some of, if not the lowest, in the U.K at present for double rifles and for fine magazine rifles.

That is not to suggest that in some way quality is lower, as that is not the case, quality is every bit as high as that displayed by H&H, quite simply Trevor works alone, his overheads are much much lower than those of a firm with in total over 100 employees world -wide as H&H have.
The down size to being a one person outfit is that leads times for commissions can run on and limit overall the output for any one year, that said however lead time for a fine magazine rifle is usually less than 6 months and for a double rifle or shotgun from around 12 - 18 months.

One rifle presently under construction is a .470 that will have 16 bore shotgun barrels to accompany it.

My rifle will not be complete for a further period of around 12-15 months, I must learn to be patient, given the response from this thread I will certainly ensure any available pictures are posted thanks to the kind offers from forumites more technically gifted at this than myself.

I will obtain some pictures later this week of the stock blank and of some of the furniture fittings already complete,so that you can get an overall impression of the raw ingredients that go into the building of such a rifle.

Thank you all for the interest and kind comments and questions

JT


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DittoHead
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Loc: Central Virginia, U.S.A.
Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #59329 - 27/06/06 05:28 AM

It takes a true craftsman to do all the work normally done by a team in a larger company. Thanks for all the information and for letting the rest of us watch your rifle come together.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: DittoHead]
      #59383 - 28/06/06 02:42 PM

Friends,

My apologies for the further delay - I hope you would bear with me in this. It has been murder at work even for someone like me who is nominally semi retired and I am not a businessman by training, something that I am working on these days is very different from what Iw as trained to do.

For the record, Jonathan is too modest to list his own achievements in the gun industry - before his current vocation he was a Ministry of Defence quality assurance professional, and he has been actively involved in the design of the 338 Lapua among a long list of achievements. When he endorses a gunmaker, his choice has to be excellent!

The pictures of the 470 that is about to be completed are below:






I have some more pictures that I shall post today of the barrels on several guns as well as an old Rigby that is being restored by Trevor. I have been tired by a long trip to Wisconsin - please give me a day to do this.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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bulldog563
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #59402 - 28/06/06 08:10 PM

Very Nice. There is something about a DR in the white that is really sexy, don't you think?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
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mehulkamdar
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: bulldog563]
      #59699 - 08/07/06 12:39 AM

Bulldog563,

Some more sexy pics.

Frends,

These are the pictures of the components that are being made into Jonathan's rifle. Don't you love the wood!









--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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clark7781
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Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #59701 - 08/07/06 02:37 AM

I love wood.... And thank blank is going to be gorgeous on that rifle.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: clark7781]
      #59914 - 13/07/06 11:50 AM

Very Nice Blank! Can't wait to see how it turns out.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
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Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: J Tomlinson's 600 NE rifle takes shape [Re: bulldog563]
      #60457 - 28/07/06 04:32 AM

The 600 Nitro Express DR is the "Wonder of Wonders" [in my opinion] with regards to sporting arms. It is filled with mystique! I am "angling" for one myself.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member


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