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CFA
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Loc: Austin, Texas

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58658 - 12/06/06 01:56 AM

Safari Press has "Atkin, Grant and Lang", nice book with a lot of history. IMO Bell made the best brass, unfortunately they quit making rifle brass. But www.buffaloarms.com bought what Bell (Mast Technology) had left and has most NE brass if they havn't sold out of that caliber.

CFA

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CFA]
#58666 - 12/06/06 08:35 AM

Will check out the book.

Buffalo Arms doesn't have any 450-400 3 1/4" brass (only 3"). Where else should I look?

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DittoHead
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58667 - 12/06/06 09:22 AM

I think this page at MidwayUSA might have what you want. One of them is .450/.400 “Thin Rim” which I didn’t see in The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions. That one is on sale and in stock, so I hope you can use it.

.450/.400 at MidwayUSA

Here it is at Graf & Sons. It’s out of stock, but something to watch. The price at Grafs includes shipping.

.450/.400 at Grafs

I don’t know much about double rifles, so I’m not sure these cases are what you need.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58670 - 12/06/06 10:04 AM

Huntingtons has .450/.400 3 1/4" Jamison. It's worth a try. As an alternative, get Fred Huntington to order in Horneber. If you have to use one of the others, try the Bertram. I know guys that have had good luck with it in this caliber. Avoid the A-Square.
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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58671 - 12/06/06 10:08 AM

400NE,

So I take it you think as far as quality the list from best to worst would be;

1. Bell
2. Jamison
3. Horneber
4. Bertram
5. A-Square

Is this accurate?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58676 - 12/06/06 11:12 AM

I've never used the Jamison. Huntingtons sent some of the first batches of it back. Since they have it in stock now, I presume they think the early problems with it have been resolved. Since it is available, I'd try it. If that doesn't work, go with Horneber.

Bertram and A-Square are strictly last ditch. Sometimes they're better than nothing, sometimes not.
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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58677 - 12/06/06 11:59 AM

The Jamison .500NE I got from Huntington is just fine. Hopefully their .450/.400 3.25" is just as good.

Curl

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ozhunter
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58683 - 12/06/06 06:04 PM

HORNEBER brass is what I have been told to order for my up and coming 450/400JEFF.
ozhunter

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: ozhunter]
#58710 - 13/06/06 07:50 AM

For the brass... Couldn't I buy the Bell 450 NE brass that Huntingtons has and resize it for the 450-400 3.25"?

Spoke with JJ today about the Lang. He said the bores are nice with no cordite burn or throat erosion and the internals look good as well.

He also told me the gun slugged .408 (he said it varied between .407 and .409). Is this variance normal? Is there anything special I need to know to accomodate this variance?

Which bullets would you guys suggest I use in this rifle? I assume it will be Woodleigh but thought I should ask anyway.

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Edited by bulldog563 (13/06/06 08:09 AM)

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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58712 - 13/06/06 10:18 AM

Welcome to the world of .408 450/400s.

Hawks or Woodleighs. I shoot Woodleighs .408s.
If you use Hawks you will need to reduce your powder load a few grains. With mine I reduce from 65 grains of RL-15 to 62 grains both with Dacron filler. The Hawks are softer and seal better.

Bulldog, I know you are excited! I was, too!
Now, the toughest thing to do is to, relax and let this deal work it'self out! JJ will not let you get stuck with a POS!

Nothing worse than the "Bound Tos". Worse than the "Cain't Help its"!

Patience young Patiwan! Take some time to enjoy this!

I look forward to seeing your double at one of our DRSS get togethers!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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Raff
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58723 - 13/06/06 12:27 PM

Congrats on your rifle. It sure looks like a keeper.
As for bullets, the Woodleigh .408 will work just fine.
Accurate and damned nice killers. At least they were in
mine.
Yes, you can size down the .450-3 1/4 but a real PIA. I
did it, ended up having to buy a reamer when the necks
ended up too thick after sizing. Look around and find
some formed cases. It will be worth the trouble. If you
get the rifle and you're not all set, PM me. I'll loan
you the cases, dies etc. you need till you are up and
running. You can't be that far away.
Good luck
Raff

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58725 - 13/06/06 12:49 PM

Bulldog:

Bores that are "nice with no cordite burn or throat erosion" are hard to find in pre-war Nitros these days. Cordite tracks don't hurt anything, but most rifles have them. Sounds nice. Having listened to J. J. 's critique of several pre-war British rifles lately, if he didn't find something to bitch about, it must be pretty good.

Yeah, some variance is normal. Woodleigh .408s should be fine. That's what I use in mine. Standard dies will work fine for either bullet diameter, but you'll need an expander ball that is appropriate for the .408s. My 3 1/4" dies came with one for .411. Personally, I never use an expander with double rifle dies anyway (I never crimp either), but that's too different for most guys to get their heads around. With this cartridge, I would strongly suggest that you not go the elcheapo route with the dies. I'd suggest RCBS. Avoid CH4D.

If the .450 Bell brass is thin rim (.040", keep in mind that Bell also made .060" thick rim .450 basic) then yeah, you can form .450/.400 3 1/4" from it. I don't think I'd go to the trouble without trying the formed Jamison first though. Horneber will be OK, but, barring luck, will be a pain to get.

As for bullets, I use Woodleighs and Hawks. Do your load development with Woodleigh softs until you've got a final load for them. Then reduce a few grains and work back up with solids, until you have a load that puts softs and solids together. After that, you have no need to, and should not, shoot solids except for hunting. Then you can move on to the Hawks for a pig and deer bullet. Don't pull the trigger on a Hawk without reducing the Woodleigh load 10%, then work back up. Hawks can get squirrelly fast in some rifles. Don't shoot handloads without a chronograph until they're finalized.

As for the banded bullets you expressed an interest in....you've spent the money, you need to study it and decide. I understand the theory behind the banded mono designs just fine, and I don't buy it for a nanosecond, nor can I see any need for them whatsoever. I would never fire one in one of my double rifles.
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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58727 - 13/06/06 01:09 PM

2Triggers,

Thank you for the very generous offer... I may take you up on it.

400NE,

Yeah, the only thing JJ said that was remotely negative was it had some minor pitting on the left barrel. Everything else passed muster so should be good to go.

Why don't you use an expander or crimp with DR ammo?

Rest assured this rifle will only be getting the best of everything once it comes to live with me. I will not be cheaping out on anything... let alone dies.

Which bullet (Woodleigh or Hawk) should be my range bullet (ie: easiest on the barrels)?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58733 - 13/06/06 03:27 PM

Sure sounds like he gave it a good report.

As far as not crimping or using an expander - less aggravation and more consistent results. I got started doing it that way years ago when I was having problems with recoil "pull" with the round in the off barrel of a .400. Since I was having to decap by hand anyway (Berdan caps), I ditched the expander ball, stopped crimping and the problem went away. I've done it that way with all the DR ammo I load ever since. The idea is to create adequate neck tension, and the best way to do that is to get rid of the expander. Without adequate neck tension, crimping won't prevent recoil pull. WITH adequate tension, crimping isn't needed and is a pain in the ass anyway.

For general range use, I imagine the Hawks might wear the tubes a little less, but not much. I tried the .025" jacket 400 grain Hawks in my .400, but it didn't like 'em. I need to try some .035" jackets in it. My .400/.360 loves the .030" jacket round tips. Tony uses Hawks in his .450/.400 quite a bit and likes them.
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4seventy
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58756 - 13/06/06 09:45 PM

In reply to:

I was having problems with recoil "pull" with the round in the off barrel of a .400..............
I ditched the expander ball, stopped crimping and the problem went away.

400,
Yep, that's what will happen when you use an expander which is too large for the projectile diameter.
In this case you were seating .408" bullets into a neck which has been expanded for .411" bullets.
When you're talking neck tension, 3 thou too large is a hell of a lot.
No wonder you experienced problems.

It wasn't the fault of the expander though, and unless the dies had been ordered to suit .408" bullets, but were supplied with an expander for .411", nor was it the fault of the die maker.

Don't fear the expander.
It is just part of a tool (the die) which needs to be correct in its sizing diameter to be able to do its job properly.
It is there for a reason.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58772 - 14/06/06 02:54 AM

Alan:

My, that was rather presumptuous and condescending of you. The expander was for .408", not .411". I knew the rifle was .408" when I bought it and ordered the dies that way.

I warned that the concept was perhaps a bit complex for some to grasp. I was clearly correct in your case.
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4seventy
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58794 - 14/06/06 09:21 AM

In reply to:

My, that was rather presumptuous and condescending of you. The expander was for .408", not .411".

Hmmmm,
My condescending presumption was, in part, based on what you stated earlier in this thread which was..........

"but you'll need an expander ball that is appropriate for the .408s. My 3 1/4" dies came with one for .411."

In reply to:

The expander was for .408", not .411".

Sorry if this seems somewhat presumptuos but the expander could not have been the correct diameter for .408".
If it had been, you would not have had to remove it in order to achieve adequate neck tension.
If the expander was causing lack of neck tension and removing it cured the problem, the expander was oversize, period.

In reply to:

I warned that the concept was perhaps a bit complex for some to grasp. I was clearly correct in your case.

Thanks for that. Nice. Yeah. Hmmmmm.
Maybe a tad presumptuous and condescending on your part though don't you think?
400, you are often "clearly correct" in many things you say regarding double rifles.
However you are not the only person on the planet to have experience reloading cartridges for doubles and to use FL dies with the expander removed for one reason or another.

Edited by 4seventy (14/06/06 03:49 PM)

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NE450No2
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58801 - 14/06/06 12:59 PM

4seventy
400 Nitro is not "Tony".

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4seventy
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: NE450No2]
#58819 - 14/06/06 03:45 PM

In reply to:

4seventy
400 Nitro is not "Tony".

Oops, there I go being presumptuos again.
Sorry 'bout that 450No2, I'll edit the post to correct it.

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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58824 - 14/06/06 05:21 PM

Whew! Glad we got that settled! I mean, I know they have a strong resemblance to each other!

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We band of brothers!
DRSS

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4seventy
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58826 - 14/06/06 06:04 PM

Twins!

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58864 - 15/06/06 08:45 AM

Who makes the best 450-400 3.25" dies? Should I get custom dies or just special order RCBS from Midway.

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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58865 - 15/06/06 08:56 AM

I got mine from Huntington. RCBS can't be beat.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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4seventy
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58874 - 15/06/06 02:27 PM

Curl,
RCBS make great dies for sure and I've always had a good run with them in the common chamberings.
I wish I could say the same for my doubles though.
I have two sets of RCBS dies for doubles, one in .470 NE and the other in 400-350 NE.
The 470 set has the shoulder too far forward by a mile.
I believe they have corrected that on current sets though.
The 400-350 set is oversize in the neck sizing section and will not reduce the neck diameter enough.
You can ditch the expander or leave it in cause it doesn't make any difference as it doesn't ever come in contact with the case.

Many don't like CH dies but I have owned a set in 360 No2 and another set in 300 Savage which were both fine.

Does all this mean that I'm saying CH is good and RCBS is no good?
Definately not, but it does demonstrate that you could end up with good or bad in either or any brand.
I think RCBS is still the best option though.

I doubt that RCBS used to make two different FL dies in 450-400 3 1/4" for the two different bullet sizes of .408 and .411 though. (talking non-custom dies)
This may be different now but it is possible that they just did a .408" full length die and either did two different expander diameters or maybe just one "average" expander at about .407" or .408" actual diameter.
That would have worked for either the .408 or the .411 but would have left the .408 with minimum neck tension as 400 NE experienced.

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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58879 - 15/06/06 05:15 PM

The CH dies I ordered for a 475 #2 Jeffery .488, came for a 475#2 .418. this after a long conversation with the owner about what I wanted. The shell holder for the 500 3 inch was so out of specs that I could not properly insert primers on any press or tool.

For me its Redding, Hornady or RCBS.

BobC has a set of custom dies for his 450/400 3 inch from Hornady that he is very happy with. Sent them two fired cases from each barrel.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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