Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!!

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

Pages: 1
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!!
      #57148 - 15/05/06 12:00 AM

I am reading a book with a similar title by Capstick and couldn't resist starting this thread.

Which animal do folks feel is the most dangerous risk in the tall grass?

The insight on lion behavior and maneaters was an eye opener.Analysis from other sources revealed 85% of the maneating lions were in good to excellent health!! Official records suggest man is just a tasty morsel worth stalking and seizing, primarily at night right out of his tent/dwelling! Once focused on a victim the lion pursues till the unfortunate is killed and consumed-BELCH- although some lions do appear to kill multiple victims for the thrill of klling.

LION-the ultimate african preditor of man??

Maybe there needs to be a new method developed for camping in lion country--
by Tree houses!!

DEATH IN THE TALL GRASS-a GREAT BOOK and a good read!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (15/05/06 12:45 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57170 - 15/05/06 05:51 AM

Are you talking about getting a good mauling or death?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Boomer
.300 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 144
Loc: The Hudson Bay Coast, Canada
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57171 - 15/05/06 06:05 AM

I think that in countries which are at war the lions have the opportunity to make man part of his normal diet. The opportunity could come from lions feeding on the dead, or from attacks the lions make on people who are trying to escape the area, and as a result are hiding in thick cover. It would not be a surprise to see numerous incidences of lion-man conflict under such conditions.



--------------------



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57189 - 15/05/06 01:20 PM

I think the lions are hungry and opportunistic.

Capstick suggests leopards can be quite the assasins with human prey and apparently can be quite calculating before during and after a kill and when hunted. While the lion may concievably become extinct from exposure/interaction with man the leopard has been successful at selective encounters of the human kind and apparently is in no such danger. Apparently many such maneaters were quite successful.

Meeting either one in the long grass could be extremely unpleassant. I know an african hunter,a podiatrist, who says he was on safari when a tracker went into the long grass to relieve himself with a rifle and never returned.In 20 minutes a search was started and his remains and the rifle was located.A hunt for the leopard was unsuccessful.Kinda gives a new perspective on privacy in the Bush.

So tell me guys- where you gonna pee now??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (15/05/06 01:29 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57197 - 15/05/06 03:35 PM

FWIW, Kruger Park now classify all it's large predators as maneaters. Illegal immigrants walking through the park get nailed regularly...... but of course, no-one knows how many. I used to help a friend of mine who was the Zoologist for one of the private photo concessions adjoining the KNP with her research and we often used to walk in the area. It wasn't an everyday occurrance but we did sometimes find evidence of where this kind of thing had happened.

Also KNP has a long history of staff etc getting nailed by (mostly) Leopards. Of the various species, I guess I'm most cautious about Lions. Some years ago, I was helping kay with some giraffe research and walked right into a pride of Lions that had just killed and were eating a Buffalo...... I got away with it, but only just. Kay herself was killed by an Elephant a couple of years ago in the same area.

Last year in the Selous we had an entire pride that were running through camp and making a fuss every night, most of the night, in the hope of getting someone to run out of a tent and join them for dinner.......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: shakari]
      #57200 - 15/05/06 09:36 PM

How did you get them to stop?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: bulldog563]
      #57202 - 15/05/06 09:50 PM




After that, the others still came round for the next three nights, but after that they decided to live elsewhere.... we still heard them every night and saw them occasionally, but at least they stayed out of camp......


--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: shakari]
      #57204 - 15/05/06 10:42 PM

How frequent are multiple charges by several lions with one lion shot and down? They hunt in groups, but I have never heard of a group attack? I know it happens with Ele but would that be rare with lions?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57208 - 15/05/06 11:45 PM

That's a good question, but I'm afraid I don't know the answer ....... I'm sure it happens but would guess that it's more likely that one would get you down and then others pile in.... but that's not the same thing. When you shoot a Lion in company of females you do need to watch the ladies carefully as well but how often you would get more than two females coming for you at once I don't know.

When we shot this one we were using the skinning shed as a blind and 2 of the females came straight over and looked through the poles..... one of them was about 6 inches from my knees (and my rifle barrel) ......... When I shouted at them and kicked the poles they bugged out ..... One thing I did notice was that she had the most God awful bad breath.....



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (16/05/06 12:13 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: bulldog563]
      #57212 - 16/05/06 02:08 AM

Shakari

The lioness you shot---

Was she the biggest female?

One wonders if shooting the "alpha" lioness would turn the group of lions better since lions are a social big cat---

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (16/05/06 02:09 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57215 - 16/05/06 04:42 AM

It's a lion, not a Lioness...... Most Selous Lions don't have much mane and it's pretty much illegal to shoot females in Tanzania except hyena or croc or in defence of human life. Actually the act states you can't shoot females that are apparently pregnant or feeding young...... so no-one shoots females of most species.......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: shakari]
      #57221 - 16/05/06 07:33 AM

Shakari--
Sorry, my mistake on your lion!!

Did the lion come into camp first or did the lioness's charge into camp ahead of him? Was there a problem sorting all this out at night?I have read the females do most of the hunting and the males much less so.

Taking a male would not affect the reproduction of the species like taking a female. With lion numbers in decline I would certainly agree that the females should not be taken unless someones life is in danger.

Someone once wrote that you could remove 90% of human males from the planet and still maintain the present reproductive rate with a low number of males and the present number of females!!

Sure would be hard on the guys left wouldn't it!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57223 - 16/05/06 08:35 AM

Hopdoc,

As I understand it, when a lion is killed, the next in succession will kill all of his predecessor's cubs and youngsters. The lioness come into heat then and his cubs face less competition in the future.

This is why there is an effort to avoid shooting males less than five years old, since the older males make better trophies and so that at least some of the pride's young make it to adolescence.

Perhaps Shakiri can fill us in.

JPK


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: JPK]
      #57245 - 16/05/06 04:01 PM

It's generally accepted that one should only take males that either don't hold a pride or if they do, the pride has no dependant young in it. Certainly, it's true that a new incoming male will kill any young below 18 months -2 years or so, as it brings the females back into season and allows him to pass his own genes on.

It's becoming more common now, and latest research shows that it's possible to take pride holding males out on a "rolling" basis - that is, to identify the prides in your area and know roughly how long the male(s) have held the pride and the age of the youngsters. Then at an appropriate time you can take the pride holding males out one after another. (It's most common for 2 males, usually brothers, to hold a pride jointly) - so if you have 2 clients coming in one after the other, you try to take the 2 males out of the same pride one after the other.

This allows for the newcomers to take the pride over and the adolescent males will usually leave and in turn become nomadic until they're old and big enough to take over their own pride.

Of course, in reality, this is sometimes harder than it sounds. For example, if you see an old male on it's own or in the company of one other, it's possible that they've already been forced out of the pride by natural process, but it's equally possible that they have just got fed up with female company and gone off on their own for a few hours...... I've done that myself on occasion!

Ageing Lions is also not as easy as it sounds. The fashionable thing at the moment is the black nose theory.... and (IMHO) it's usually misunderstood. Most people seem commonly to think that a black nose equals a Lion over 6 years old..... hell, I've even heard that quoted on the TV.......(others claim pink noses equal age) but it ain't necessarily so. Take a look at any Lion TV documentary and you'll see plenty of black nosed cubs and adolescents. Also factor in that most Lions in real life have dirty or bloody noses and when they fight, they get scratched noses which when healing, go pink. - Then there are the geographical differences that occur. If Lions in some areas grow big manes and in other areas small manes, then what's to say, that all Lions of a certain age have noses of the same colour?........ (IMO) nose colour should only ever be used as a guidline and nothing more. Equally important in ageing a lion is size of mane - but take area typicalities into consideration here, size of head, (particularly width), spots or lack of them, general demeanour etc etc can all be important factors.

Then there's also the factor of human life. I don't usually like taking pride holders and will try to look for nomadic males to take - But the Lion I mentioned here was certainly holding a pride and in all honesty, I'm not certain if it had any youngsters in it, but if we hadn't made them go elsewhere you can be sure that sooner or later they would killed someone.There were 30 odd staff plus myself and my wife plus a client in camp - all sleeping under canvas. That's a lot of souls to keep safe!..... therefore, I felt justified in taking this particular Lion out of this particular pride in this particular case. Interestingly, later that same night, we heard the females kicking up a real hullabaloo and calling for a new male.

As with most things in Africa, things aren't always clear cut and one should never say never and never say always.....

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (16/05/06 06:56 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: shakari]
      #57250 - 16/05/06 11:33 PM

Shakari,

Thanks for the info.

I have a question. In Zim last year I was offerred the oportunity to hunt a lion since an earlier hunter had struck out. By the time it was all confirmed we were limited in time, but we did try to track a lion and a lioness that were together, with no other lions apparently since we only ever saw their tracks. We never caught up with them. Was this the beginning of a future pride?

Also, in addition to tracking the big footed male and his lioness, we baited for them, meaning him. We did have a large - huge to me lion - feeding on a bait and got to watch him but the PH told me not to shoot, since he was too young. He told me that as much as he wanted for me to shoot that lion he could'nt make some faint spots disapear. He told me two more years and that lion would be a really nice lion. The lion was huge to me, but how old was he likely to be?

We made the bait harder to get to in the hope of discouraging the too young lion and still atracting the older or at least larger footed lion, but no go. Other baits were unsuccessful, though we did find a pride of ten or so lionesses and youngster - never saw the lion(s) and they never hit a bait.

A later hunter who posts here, Zimhunter I believe, tracked and took a nice lion from the same conccession. Been wondering if it was one of the lions we were either baiting or tracking.

JPK


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: shakari]
      #57253 - 17/05/06 12:21 AM

Shakari---

How does one lion proof a camp?
Keep watch all night with fires going?

Is there any nylon tent netting of any type that offers some kind of warning that if trouble wants it will allow a call to arms for protection?

Capstick relates several hairy encounters while sleeping in camp. Africa is indeed Africa-in camp or out

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (17/05/06 01:13 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: JPK]
      #57254 - 17/05/06 12:33 AM

I guess it's all about definitions...... It's relatively unusual for a female to be alone - but not impossibe and that female may have teamed up with a young (probably nomadic?) male.... then if they breed, I guess they are the beginnings of a new pride.

Without seeing a pic of the Lion you mention, it's difficult to give you an age - esp as it's not an area I'm familiar with - but from what you say, my guess is probably around 3 or 4 years or so...

Zim has a different system to most of the places I operate in that a hunter can take extra animals on short hunts that haven't been taken by a previous hunter or haven't been sold. I guess it's a good selling point for the outfitter and good for the hunter, but I'm not so sure it's so good for the general management policy of the area or for long term profits.... but thats a whole different conversation

If these two were in the same territory of a seperate pride, I'm suprised your PH didn't try a bit of calling....... it's often very effective in those situations. A Lions downfall is his arrogance and a pride holding male will be very aggressive if he thinks there's an intruder in his area...... a bit of calling will often bring them in very quickly and looking for trouble.........

I guess Zimhunter's Lion could well have been the one of the ones you saw...... if it was the same area then its more than possible.......

Funny how memory plays tricks on me...... I've just remembered an incident that happened to me a few years ago........ I was in the Selous hunting with a client on a 21 day licence and we shot a big Lion and did all the usual precautions after the shot...... we approached the downed animal from behind, the tracker threw rocks, then twisted it's tail and then I kicked it's ass and had no response to any of it all..... then I moved up to it's head (all this with my rifle in my shoulder and the safety off and ready to shoot) and touched the closed eye with my muzzle a few time..... again nothing, another nudge on the shoulder with my foot and still nothing..... so that was that I thought.... one ex Lion. I put the safety back on while I was congratulating the client (I unload a bit later) and then knelt down and peeled back the eyelid with my face about 6 inches from the Lion's face..... I actually don't know why I do this bit, but I do..... Then when I looked into his eye, it suddenly blazed bright orange with malevolence for a second and I felt the whole body tense up..... and then as the eye faded to dead the muscles slowly relaxed for good....... frankly, all I could think of at that moment was "Oh Fuck!" - I've often read about people who say at a certain moment, their blood ran cold...... now I know what that means... and it's not a nice feeling.........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (17/05/06 12:55 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57256 - 17/05/06 12:48 AM

Hoppdoc,

It's very difficult. You can build a wall of thorn branches like the Masai do to protect their livestock etc but it's bloody ugly and you need to move it every day to get the vehicles in and out...... so that doesn't happen. Most camps - and all of my camps have a night watchman armed with a shotgun and a whistle. We usually build him a machan/high seat in a central location so he can see all of the client accommodation at least. I like to keep it small, so he can't get too comfortable and fall asleep. Any nylon net of any sort would be frowned on by the game dept as it could be used for other things...... in fact, nets are specifically mentioned in the Tourist Hunting Regs of both 1974 and 2000 as banned items.

I've had Lions in camp a few times over the years but none as determined as these ones were.

I was in Burigi Tanzania next to the Rwanda border about 5 years ago and was sat outside my tent one lunchtime cleaning my rifle when a Lion walked past and strolled all the way through camp.......... He walked right past me at about 15 yards and just carried on going..... It was actually funny as hell seeing all the staff climb trees etc with me desperately trying to put my rifle back together in time to do anything..... but he just kept on going in a straight line and we never saw him again.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (17/05/06 12:54 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: shakari]
      #57258 - 17/05/06 02:39 AM

In Chewore South, during the hunt I refered to earlier, we had lion tracks in the camp from the pair. We could hear them roaring, but not from camp or just outside it. After we discovered the tracks I took my 375H&H to my chalet at night. Probably wouldn't have helped, and I kept it by the door, which a good shove could have knocked in, but I think I slept better.

The lion with the lioness had really huge tracks, according to the PH, maybe he'd been driven out of a pride.

JPK


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: JPK]
      #57262 - 17/05/06 03:45 AM

Talking about lions in camp, Ron White who owns the Imbabala tourist camp on the Zambezi River on a private National Parks concession in Zim (near the Bots border/bordering Chobe Nat Park in Bots) told a story of some entertaining dinner entertainment, when a pride of lions rushed some waterbuck that had fed right in among the chalets and made a kill not far from the occupied dinner table. The entertainment included a lioness coming from the opposite direction right past the guests dining at the open air dining table.

For the lucky few who witnessed it, a tale to tell their grand-kids.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: shakari]
      #57268 - 17/05/06 06:39 AM

Shakari--

That eyeball to lion experience is one of those "deer in the headlights" things where we know we just miissed seeing our maker by mere molecules .

How about crawling up a steep embankment and suddenly facing a large rattlesnake head within 6 inches of your face? Same reaction. Froze then walked on air back about 8 feet!
Oh yes, and my buddies though it was hilarious and were rolling on the floor laughing their ass*s off as they had killed the snake previously and sent me up that narrow trail to look at some deer rubs and get surprised by their new plaything.It worked!

Yowsers! My only consolation was that I didn't loose control of any bodily functions with that encounter!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (17/05/06 07:05 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57272 - 17/05/06 10:44 AM

When I was in the Chobe we had lions in camp pretty much every night. They weren't really vocal and seemed to be there to steal the meat that the camp staff had hung to dry... But sure enough, every morning there would be lion tracks all around camp and the staff would be bitching that the evil lion stole all their Njama.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: bulldog563]
      #57275 - 17/05/06 11:43 AM

Kinda gives a new meaning to the word "insomniac"!!

With this kinda fun at night and being potential tablefare for these nocturnal hunters---
A 12 guage double with slugs or rifle in a tent is of limited help if a beast has an extremity or your neck and is pulling you into the bush.

Sounds like a nightscope on a rifle and a infrared heat sensor could be a valuable tool to possess!!

I wonder--
How many human deaths occur at night when the cats are hunting vs being baited during other hours of the day?



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (17/05/06 11:45 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: DEATH IN THE AFRICAN LONG GRASS!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #57278 - 17/05/06 03:17 PM

Now that snake story is funneeeee! The client who was with me on the Lion episode is a practical joker of world proportions and we spent half our time laughing - I'll have to remember that one for when we hunt together again next year.....might even try to buy a rubber snake......

I hunted with another guy last year who bought out a set of NVGs - they were great fun and very useful to watch the predators etc at night.

Personally, I don't even go to dinner without taking my rifle along and it's right beside the bed when I sleep. - Overly cautious? - perhaps. I'm an ugly bastard now, but I've been in the business for many years and don't plan to let anything except old age make me any uglier

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (17/05/06 04:54 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 41 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating: ****
Topic views: 3194

You rated this topic a 4.
Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved