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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
Posts: 192
Loc: St. Albans Maine U.S.A.
Building a custom big game rifle
      #56566 - 07/05/06 08:23 AM

Since I had such a great responce on my topic about building a custom double rifle would their be any intrest in me talking about building a custom big game rifle? I could show lots of pictures of re building a P-14 / P17 like I used on my .366 DGW. I was also thinking about going into stock design, proper lay out of the grain in a blank and all the good stuff. Let me know if you would be intrested. Many of the pictures I would post are on my web site which is http://www.customguns.us/

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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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bulldog563
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #56568 - 07/05/06 09:06 AM

Definitely... I would be very interested.

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: bulldog563]
      #56573 - 07/05/06 10:22 AM

Well first off when a customer comes into my shop looking for a custom rifle to be built I will probably ask more questions then them. After all for me to build them the rifle they are dreaming of I have to see that dream and know exactly what they want. However there are some basics which can not be comprimised on such as the lay out of the stock blank. I do not know how many times I hear " this is a beautiful blank and the grain is OK for a light caliber rifle." You never sacrifice strength for figure, that is one reason why good blanks cost as much as the do. The grain must run through the butt into the grip and on up into the forearm if you want any strength. A pretty broken stock is fire wood no matter how nice the grain looks. I deal with this all the time and in general will not work with a stock blank that I do not know the age of and never a blank with poor grain lay out. This brings up another point. You want a blank that has been air dried for at least five years and if kiln dried this also holds true and though I can not say for sure I have been told that kiln dried wood is more brittle.
If this picture which I used in an article I wrote comes out you will see proper grain lay out, if not I will scan it in again and repost it as this is important to see and understand when looking at any rifle.

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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (07/05/06 04:42 PM)

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DoubleD
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #56586 - 07/05/06 03:34 PM

Wow, that stock is about as good as it gets for grain layout!! And, I ain't no stockist!!!

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DD, Ret.

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: DoubleD]
      #56591 - 07/05/06 05:13 PM


With our custom rifle project we must also decide on caliber and what action, barrel and what modifications if any are needed. In this case I was building a .366 DGW and needed a large, (.416 Rigby size) action so I chose the good old P-14 Enfield action. There were several reasons for this decision. First it is a very strong action with a big shank diameter, second if a P-14 action is used you do not need a counter bore or extractor cut in the face of the barrel, both of which I feel do not give as much suport to the cartridge head as a Mauser style barrel face does, but this is open to debate. I also like the big Enfield and when cleaned up I feel they are rather nice looking, reminisint of the Remington Mod. 720.
First the ears were ground off and the "dogs leg bolt handle shortened and straightened out. The rear bridge was cut down to 98 Mauser countours which simplified scope mount problems and removed weight and improved balance. The ejector/ bolt stop was cut back, the button removed along with the suporting metal and also the metal along the ejection port to enable a cartridge the size of the .416 Rigby to eject cleanly. Other modifications such as "cock on open" and opening up the rails were required on this rifle but I am getting carried away so enough said about this action.
The top cartridge is a .338 Winchester and the bottom the .366 DGW for comparison.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #56617 - 08/05/06 11:44 AM


Once the metal work is done it is time to lay out the stock blank. The reason the metal work must be done first is that alterations you make to the action may well effect the inletting of the blank. For example in this case the P-14 has been fitted with a drop magizine and this is very different then the origional mag.
Once the metal work is done you have to lay out the blank. The first step is to draw a center line all around the blank. All your measurements will work off this center line. Next you will have to find the length of pull in relation to the guard screw hole location. Length of pull is the distance from the butt plate or recoil pad to the center of the trigger. Next I mark out for the cast off for the right hand shooter or cast on for the left hand people out there. Cast is an angle incorporated into the butt of a rifle. The reason for cast is that your eye and the point where the butt of the rifle contacts your shoulder do not line up. If the butt is angled about 1/2" to one side or the other the rifle will point better and tend to point where you are looking. The 1/2" is ball park and the broader a persons shoulders are the more this measurement will increase assuming their face is not accordingly fuller. Drop, which is how much the comb is below the center line of the bore is a bad word for me! I try to lay out a stock with as little drop as possable. The more the drop the more you have muzzel jump, you want the line of recoil as straight into the shoulder as can be had. If the rifle is to be used with open sights the same holds true but the cheek piece will have to be cut a bit deeper to allow your eye to get down on the sight plane.
Once all this is done and the lines are drawen ti is time to start making chips, but small chips, you start inletting. Go slow, nothing detracts from a custom rifle more then poor inletting filled with glass bedding. Poor lines come in either tied or second place. I have built many custom rifles yet I still start the inletting the same way. I inlet the complete barreled action first and then the bottom metal. I do it this way as I find it easier to ensure that the barreled action is sunk half way and parrell to the trued top line of the blank. One trick here if you are looking for the African dangerous game rifle look for a light caliber rifle is to very slightly angle the barrel channel down wards, so the barrel is just below half wa inletted at the end of the forearm. This will give you the look of a heavy barrel big game rifle with out the weight of the massive barrel.
In this picture the center line has been layed out and the holes for the guard screws drilled, the inletting is about to begin. The next picture shows the balleled action sunk half way into the blank, after this the magizine or bottom metal is inletted and the real fun begins!!!

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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (08/05/06 11:54 AM)

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #56655 - 09/05/06 03:13 AM

The next step after the barreled action has been inletted is to inlet the bottom metal. I use two alignment pins which screw into the holes for the guard screws of the action to keep every thing straight and level. I find it easiest to use a padded to hold the action to the stock blank durring the inletting. Most of the roughing out of the inletting is done with burrs and a "Fordom" and Dremel , thenk God for power tools. All the fine work is done with chisels, rasps and files.
You must take care to keep the edges of the inletting tight with the metal and some sort of collering on the metal helps (prussion blue is what I use) Keep in mind that you only want to remove wood where the blue shows but also remember that you will get to a point where you will have contact and blue on all the edges of the inletting if it is tight as it should be. The trick is to know when to stop removing the wood where the blue shows. Go sluwly is the best advice I can give you about this.


When the inletting is finished it is time to fit the recoil pad or butt plate. All the lines of the stock will work from the pad forward. The pad will be set to one side of the center line of the stock for the cast, in this case it is 1/2" to the right . This rifle has minimal drop so the heel of the pad is as close to the center line of the bore as possable.


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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (09/05/06 03:15 AM)

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #56902 - 11/05/06 02:58 PM


Gee, none of you are telling me what you think or asking any questions, I feel alone out here! Well so be it. This rifle is to have a picture puzzle forend tip as we call it and this is how it is done, but first I will try to show you a picture of what I am trying to accomplish.

The ebony forend tip is inletted into the walnut like a piece of a picture puzzle. To do this, (or any inlay for that matter) first I make a paper pattern and cut it out. I glue one half of the pattern to the stock blank and the other half to the inlay/ forend tip. The theory is that when inletting the forend tip if you never cut into either pattern it will be a perfect fit. Well you know how it goes with theories!!! It is best if you undercut the inlay at a slight angle or draft. This allows you to keep the fit tight as you do not want the glue joint to show. These tips I usually inlet a quarter to a half inch deep but I have done them so they go on into the barrel channel but this is a lot of work and of no purpose. This picture shows me laying out the forend tip onto the stock blank, the ebony tip with the paper pattern glued on is sitting on the vice.

In the next picture you will see me tapping on the forend tip to mark out the high spots where I need to cut more. You can use inletting black or what ever you want to shop the high/ tight spots just make sure you wash both the inlsy and the stock with somthing like lacquer thinner before you try to glue things up. One point of intrest, Rose wood has an oil in it and if working with it you always want to wash it with thinner or best asitone to get the best glue joint.



--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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SAHUNT
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #56920 - 11/05/06 07:36 PM

Hi Judson,
Being busy with my own little project in a 416 Rigby, I gulp up all the info you supply. Always a couple of new tricks to learn

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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bulldog563
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: SAHUNT]
      #56925 - 11/05/06 09:31 PM

I have been enjoying this thread. I am a complete novice at gunsmithing and the info is very informative.

Keep it up.

--------------------
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Ndumo
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: bulldog563]
      #56954 - 12/05/06 02:50 AM

In reply to:

I have been enjoying this thread. I am a complete novice at gunsmithing and the info is very informative



bulldog (and possibly others) do yourself a favour- go and visit your friendly gunsmith while he is building a rifle from scrach (like above). It is amazing to see, and tell you what, i would not do all that work for the mony involved (That is if I could, which I could not, as I have too many thumbs...)

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Ndumo]
      #56977 - 12/05/06 10:09 AM

Now once the stock is finally shapped it is time to sand it out. This is where you loose your finger nails and your finger prints. Sanding is tedious work and is time consuming if you want the stock to come out right. I start with 100 grit and work up to at least 400 grit before the finishing starts. As I neglected to mention in my prior post, all final shapping and sanding is done with the rifle assembled. This is because to get a good wood to metal fit you have to cut the wood down to the metal and during the shaping you go to finer and finer files untill the wood is just proud of the metal. Next you sand untill the wood and metal are flush. You should feel no difference in the level of the wood and the metal only a difference in texture. This means that you also sand the metal but by the time you get to 400 grit all is like glass. Once I get to 220 grit I wet sand using mineral spirits as a wetting agent. This does two things. First it makes your paper last longer and second it fills the pores of the wood with the sanding dust of the wood which fills the pores and speeds up the finishing. At times when I finish with the 220 grit I remove the metal from the wood and apply a coat of thined finish. This will help to show file and sanding marks you have missed and it seems like you are chaseing these marks through the hole process.
All sanding is done with sanding blocks as rounded edges are a big no no. A good size eraser workes great, however around the shadow lines the only way to go is to fold the paper, keep it plenty wet and work slowly. I use a 2.5 power Opti Visor for checkering and finishing, if your work looks good at 2.5 power it will look fantastic to the naked eye.

If this comes out, it is the finished rifle in South Africa in 2001

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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bulldog563
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #56979 - 12/05/06 10:40 AM

What is the cost (roughly) of a rifle like this from start to finish from you?

--------------------
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new_guy
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57024 - 12/05/06 11:16 PM

Judson – excellent post. How do you maintain symmetry in the stock (keeping the same amount of wood on each side) while rasping and filing so much of the wood away?

It seems to me, that by “eyeing” it alone, one could end up with more wood on one side than the other or the bottom of the stock being asymmetrical, etc…

Thanks for taking the time to put this together for our benefit.


--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: new_guy]
      #57064 - 13/05/06 07:46 AM

The symmetry of of the forearm can be handled by using a scale, and such things as calipers. However you also use the good old eye ball which with a bit of training can be suprisingly accurate. The butt of the rifle is another story, here it is mostly up to using your yye unless you are trying to build a rifle to match another in which case countour patterns are used. Building a custom stock let alone a complete rifle takes many hours. The .366 DGW shown took around 200 pluss hours to create with the action modifications and such, scope and all it would sell for around $5200 hawever that is my rifle and yall ain't gona get it!
Double rifles are a different can of worms and the time involved in building, regulating, and all the other aspects send the prices up.

Now that we are finishing the stock it is time to do the final polishing of the metal and start the rust bluing in the case of this rifle. If you want and have a tank big enough to hold the barreled action and you have a way to heat this tank and bring the water in it to a boil you can rust blue at home. (Probably when the wife is out) True rust blue is the most durable of all the bluing processes. With this type of blue you are converting red iron oxide to black iron oxide, since rust can not rust you have a tough, rust resistant finish which will last for many more years then hot blued finishes. The down side to the rust blue is the time involved to do a good job.
One of the big factors in the price of a custom rifle is the stock blank. Nice wood can run from several hundred dollars to thousands. This English walnut blank on the little Martini was a great buy at $595 and that was 15 years ago.
The blank on the rifle I have been writing about is Claro walnut and was $295.



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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (13/05/06 08:01 AM)

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57226 - 16/05/06 09:35 AM

While the metal is being rust blued more coats of finish are going on the stock. The idea is to fill the pores you do not want a build up of finish which is why all the wet sanding. A simple stock takes around an hour to sand out for the next coat of finish. Stocks with shadow lines will take two or more hours if their is very much detail. By the time you are done you may have as many as 15 or 16 coats of finish on the stock. Once all the pores are filled and the stock is like glass wet sand it out one final time with 600 grit and you are ready for the checkering. Once the checkering is done you will have to seal it with around two coats of thinned (50/50) finish. I usually brush this into the checkering and rub as much as I can out of the checkering by hand and over the rest of the stock.
It is the stuff like this shadow line that takes the time in sanding if you do not want to round the edges.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57353 - 19/05/06 06:21 AM


When the stock is basically finished it is time to decide on checkering. I usually lay out different patterns using fine strips of tape for a point pattern and both thin tape and cut out tape patterns for the fill in designs. Using the tape allows me to give the customer an idea of what the pattern will look like, and also make changes untill they are happy with the lay out. Point patterns are checkering patterns where the lines which form the diamonds also end up being the pointed edges of the pattern. A fill in pattern on the other hand is of any shape where the edges of the pattern are hand cut and have no relation to the lines of the diamonds. If this picture comes out it is an example of a fill in pattern which I did on the double rifle I built.


Once a pattern is decided on the master lines have to be cut. These master lines determine the size of the diamond as far as length and width. In the U.S. about 3.5 times the width seems to be the most popular, in Europe they seem to liker longer diamonds many times not pointed but flat toped.
I lay out the master lines using an Exact knife just scratching through the finish. I deepen them with a 60 degree single line cutter. Once this is finished the actual checkering or really the laying out the diamonds begins. I will try to post a picture showing the tape borders and the master lines on the grip and forearm of the double.


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (20/05/06 07:59 AM)

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Judson
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57411 - 20/05/06 08:34 AM


When laying out the actual checkering I use a double line cutter. One edge of the cutter is placed in the master line and the edge cuts, or more to the point scores out the next line. The double line cutter is then moved over to this new line and you do this process again marking out the next line. This process is repeated untill all the lines in one direction are marked out, then you start on the other master line and go through it all again untill all the diamonds are layed out.
There are several things to remember when doing this. First, I leave the tape in place because on the back stroke of the checkering tool you can feel the tape if you hit it and this helps to prevent run overs. Also reverse the stock, (direction you are cutting) after every few lines otherwise you will find your lines angle off very slightly but this adds up by the time you get finished. Consentrate on the edge of the tool that is in the prevously cut line, the edge guiding the cutting of the next line. Do not look at the line being cut, for what ever reason, if your eye wonders so does the cutter.
Use almost no pressure on the tool let the teeth do all the work. Each pas will deepen the lines slightly, if your fingers are getting sore then you are using way too much pressure.
Use a magnifer and get the brightest light you can find so that it angles across the checkering casting shadows into the cut lines, this makes every thing show up much better. Most important is to go slow and as soon as you loose your consitration quit for a time. When checkering do not bother to look at the clock if you want a good job look at the calinder, it takes lots of time!
After every thing is layed out the diamonds have to be deepened so they point up and are sharp, I will get into that in my next post.
If any of you have questions or coments please feel free to bring them up! Here should be a picture of half of the pattern layed out but the diamonds have not been deepened and pointed up.


--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (20/05/06 08:37 AM)

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Judson
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Reged: 21/09/05
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57475 - 21/05/06 01:15 PM

I can see that a lot of you are reading this junk I am posting but how about some feed back so I know what you want to know? Please feel free to ask questions about any of this!
If this picture comes this ZKK-602 in .375H&H has a point pattern for checkering in 22 LPI


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It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

Edited by Judson (21/05/06 01:18 PM)

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luv2safari
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57477 - 21/05/06 02:02 PM

I think we are all in awe... I know that I'll save all this. Talent like yours fascinates us, and we often don't know where to start asking questions.

From handshake to the test range, how long would a customer be expected to chew his fingernails?

Thank you for one of the most interesting threads ever.

L2S

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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AkMike
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: luv2safari]
      #57481 - 21/05/06 04:24 PM

How do you manage to get the master lines straight around the compound curves? It seems like a small Boo-Boo here will screw everything up.

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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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bulldog563
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57487 - 21/05/06 06:24 PM

This is a great thread... I read it everyday. Keep up the good work.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
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SAHUNT
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: bulldog563]
      #57490 - 21/05/06 08:17 PM

Judson,
I check this tread out first when I am on the site. Very intresting. Can you post a close up of the photo after you marked out the checkering

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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hoppdoc
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: Judson]
      #57494 - 21/05/06 09:55 PM

I look for and read the thread everytime a new post comes up.
Very informative!

I am amazed at the technique and the complexity of actions to obtain a custom rifle. I totally lack the patience and ability to do those actions. I am awestuck.Very impressive. I can only appreciate the results.

You have given many many pearls in the construction of a custom rifles.May I ask what is the most important visual features we can observe to determine the quality of the finished product when handling? What primary features would you look for to assess a custom gun and how it was made?

Fantastic thread!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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mickey
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Re: Building a custom big game rifle [Re: luv2safari]
      #57532 - 22/05/06 09:24 AM

In reply to:

I know that I'll save all this.



l2s

Don't worry. This thread will be saved. Rest assured.

It is great.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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