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CptCurl
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Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges
#55365 - 21/04/06 08:48 AM

Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore Double Rifle Cartridges

I want to foster a discussion of 4 medium bore double rifle cartridges. I am interested in opinions. Your opinion can be based on fact or emotion. For whatever reason, it’s your opinion. I ask that you follow a few rules and keep strictly on topic. I seek the opinions of those who own or would like to own a double rifle. If you have no interest in double rifles, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it will not be helpful here.

THE SCENARIO:

Assume these dynamics:

(1) You are comfortably well-off or you have had a windfall.

(2) You decide to buy a double rifle.

(3) Your purchase is restricted to these four possible chamberings and no others. They are:

(a) .450/.400 3 ¼” Magnum Nitro Express;
(b) .450/.400 3” Nitro Express (Jeffrey);
(c) .375 H&H Flanged Magnum Nitro Express; or
(d) .375 H&H Belted Rimless Magnum Nitro Express.

(4) You approach a maker or dealer for your purchase. The seller can offer you a double rifle of the exact same make or brand, grade, quality, style, and price in any of the 4 chamberings.

These are your choices. I’ll let you pick the grade and price of your rifle, but they all remain the same in the 4 chamberings. Which do you buy?

- For instance, if a utility grade “working” rifle is in your budget, which chamber do you buy?

- Likewise, if your budget allows you to buy a best-quality sidelock ejector, which chamber do you buy?

- And what about a medium grade boxlock – which chamber do you buy?

Remember, it must be one of the 4 chamberings set out above.

Let’s debate this question and express our opinions. You can even change your opinion as the debate goes on, if you feel that way. Let the debate focus on the cartridges, not on any person expressing an opinion. State your reasons. If you think of other reasons you didn’t mention, post again. If you must defend your stated reasons, post again.

I hope this is an interesting topic for the members. I am really interested in what people will say. If we get a good response I’ll make the effort to compile a summary of the opinions when the debate seems to have ended.

Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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banzaibird
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55377 - 21/04/06 11:31 AM

I'll play Curl.

I take the 450/400 3". In all of the scenarios. My reasoning being as follows. This is a medium bore cartridge that you can virtually hunt all game with across the world. Sure it might be too much gun for some things and a tad light for others. However with proper shot placement you should probably be able to do the job. I’m assuming it is easier on the shoulder than the large bores (never shot a 450/400) and thus more people are likely to shoot it better. The same could probably be said for the 375 however I thing that it might just be a bit too light instead of a tad light (how’s that for obscure references

). I choose the 3” simply because I’m a reloader and this allows me to use less or possibly no fillers in the case. Makes things simpler, I’m all for simpler.

Anyway that’s what I would do. I sure hope some of the much more experienced people post to this I’d like to hear there thoughts and compare them to mine and see if I’m out in left field by myself or not.

Bill

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JPK
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: banzaibird]
#55379 - 21/04/06 12:19 PM

My first choice would be 375 Flanged Magnum followed by 375H&H. I would have the rifle set up for QD scope mounts and would use a Scmidt and Bender 1.25x4x24 with the flash dot. I would want the weight at 9 1/2lbs with the scope, 26" barrels, ejectors. This rifle would pack into a small case and travel easily.

Ideally it would be the mate of a 450 through 476 NE big bore and it would serve for lion, leopard and plains game and as a back up for the big bore for buff and elephant.

The Flanged version would be prefered for a DR but the rimless version would do as well.

Both rifles would fit into a short and compact case that would fit into the bottom of a large duffel for one less piece of luggage to haul around.

JPK

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1980E26
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55380 - 21/04/06 12:24 PM

Curl,

My choice would be the 450/400 3" in a working gun with no engraving. Ditch the ugly factory lumber and put on a smoking stick of Bastone or Myrtle (no checkering) and go on down the road and burn out the barrels! Heck barrel makers have to eat to:)))

My vote would be for a Heym 88B with my lumber and leather covered recoil pad.

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Marrakai
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: 1980E26]
#55385 - 21/04/06 02:02 PM

Here's another vote for the .400 Jeffery, in any or all configurations. Opinion based on many years of successful use, without a single disappointment. Includes many large buffalo bulls and boars too nemerous to mention. Shot 19 pigs with mine last Thursday.

I should add that an original 24"-barrelled Jeffery .400 double rifle will make the shooter a better hunting shot than he otherwise deserves, they are just built right!

Biased? You bet!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55387 - 21/04/06 02:44 PM

Well, I certainly agree with Marrakai. I've owned both .400s. I prefer the 3" but either would be fine, although 3" brass seems to be a bit easier to find these days.

At any hunting range that a double rifle with express sights is suitable for, I would always opt for the .400 over a .375. The .375 Flanged Magnum may offer slightly more flexibility as the range increases, but must wear a scope to realize it. The lion's share of the reason I switched to doubles from bolt rifles was the sparkling handling and instinctive pointabiility of the better quality doubles, which no magazine rifle can touch. A scope just murders this.

I would not accept a double in the Belted Rimless Magnum under any circumstances.

Although I'm not knocking them, sidelocks have never been my cup of tea. I'd want it in a best boxlock, pre-war English only. 26" barrels only. If I decided to splurge a bit, maybe a droplock. The problem is that, while I love the droplock, I've never been especially fond of Westley Richards doubles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NitroX
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55394 - 21/04/06 06:52 PM

I would go for a .400 Jeffrey too, boxlock, sidelock whatever, as long as it fits and swings well. I do like the versatility of being able to use a scope however.

I would like a .375 Flanged, scoped, for Australian use though.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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470evans
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55400 - 21/04/06 09:49 PM

I vote for the 400 3" as well. Particularly since I just got mine.

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banzaibird
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55402 - 21/04/06 10:37 PM

Since I gave the reasons for the 400 3" choice above and everyone else is adding their thought of the perfect gun to it I'll add mine now. Now keep in mind I'll never ever be able to afford it but if I'm going to dream I'm going to dream big.

David McKay-Brown in the 3". Of course built to fit me. leather covered pad. A really high end walnut. Don't care what kind as long as it's dark and exquisite. 26" Barrels with 1 standing and 1 folding leaf sight. Has QD mounts for a scope and now here is where I'd do somethign really weird. Get some custom bullets in about 320 grain and set the scope up to regulate to just one of the barrels. Thus for extended range use it would basically be a single shot. Use the express sights for eveything under 150 yds.

Anyway that's my dream, my big really expensive dream

.

Bill

Edited by banzaibird (21/04/06 10:39 PM)

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55412 - 22/04/06 01:21 AM

CptCurl,

As Ernie Stallman's guest I have shot both his 450-400 3 and 3 1/4" guns and I loved them immensely. I also shot his 375s (two different rifles) but both were bolt guns and I have shot an old pre war Anschutz (yes, you read right

) Mauser in 375 Magnum in India a bit.

Never owned a double rifle and probably won't be able to afford any other than the Remington-Baikal but if I could commission a double rifle it would be for either of the 450-400s. I don't like recoil much but I found that of Ernie's guns perfectly acceptable and great fun and shooting that day is among my most pleasant memories.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: mehulkamdar]
#55457 - 22/04/06 11:22 AM

I would go for the 375 Flanged. Like the 9.3x74R, it is much more practicable for world wide hunting. If I intended to only hunt in Africa the 400 would be my choice. But I don't.

I also love the Scottish round actions (as opposed to just grinding on the corners). I think a Daniel Fraser or MacKay-Brown would fit the bill nicely. Regulated for the 270 grain bullet and with a 1.75x6 Leupold in claw mounts. The whole thing to weigh in less than 9.0 lbs.

I like engraving so I would ask Phillipe Griffnee to do something simple, his choice, which has always been good enough in the past. A nice but not flashy piece of Walnut.

Might as well add a set of 20 gauge shotty barrels. I know the balance would be a bit off but a good choice for those dinky little quail in Aus.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55703 - 25/04/06 06:39 PM

Curl, I'm still thinking about this one.
Never had a windfall before so want to make the most of it.
All 4 cartridges are damn good ones and that makes the decision a bit harder.
The rifle is easy.
Holland Royal Deluxe sidelock ejector, 25 inch barrels and Holland quick release mounts.
And yes, a couple of those buttons on the water table too please.

Ok, I've decided on the 375 flanged magnum, yeah, I'm happy with that.

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zimhunter
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55793 - 26/04/06 11:48 AM

David McKay Brown 375 Flanged in an O/U with 24" Barrels. Extra nice DARK wood, no ornamentation. Standing leaf for 50 yds with one flip up for 100yds, fiber optic front. Kahles 2x7 scope in whatever quick release mounts the builder chooses. 1" recoil pad preferably a Decellerator. Finish to be builders choice.

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333Jeffery
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55853 - 27/04/06 05:05 AM

I'm selling some real-estate, and in a few months may be in a position to buy a double. From your list, I would go with either the 450/400 3", or the .375 Flanged. If possible, I'd like to get an extra set of barrels, so that I could have both calibers. The gun would be a fairly utilitarian grade, I don't need fancy engraving. But, I would like QD scope mounts on it, and a nice case to house it.

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nopride2
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: 333Jeffery]
#55895 - 27/04/06 02:14 PM

450-400 3" Add thicker rim to the reasons stated above. Now if I could find one that weighed about 9 pounds.

Dave

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MauserRifle
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55896 - 27/04/06 02:16 PM

Money is no object!

My pick would be the 450/400 3" or 3 1/4", wouldn't make much difference.

The 450/400 is to DR's what the 375 H&H is to bolt action rifles, only a little better in my opinion. ( 400 gr. bullet)

The 450/400 can be built on a smaller frame thus making it lighter and easier to carry all day.

Even though it is lighter than the .500's. .600's and .700's, there is less recoil making it more pleasurable and easier to shoot, thus more accurate for most.

As money is no object, you can have it regulated to the load you desire and can afford to have these loads made for you at your whim. (with all that money you will not have time ro reload anyway as you will be too busy traveling from one hunt to another)

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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bulldog563
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: MauserRifle]
#55897 - 27/04/06 02:23 PM

400 Jeff in a Westley Richards Droplock. That would be a great rifle.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
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bonanza
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: bulldog563]
#55928 - 28/04/06 01:00 AM

400/450 3" for all the above reasons.

Why did not you include the 500/416?

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Rusty
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: bonanza]
#55950 - 28/04/06 07:09 AM

As a proud and satisfied owner of a 450/400 3 inch I must echo all the above reasons.

If there is such a tihing a perfect "All Around" chambering for a double rifle the 450/400 3 inch is that round. Small enough to hunt Worthogs and Pigs and big enough to handle whatever pops up out of the bush, elephant included.

A long, deep penetrating 400 grain .408 or .411 caliber bullet at either 1950 or 2100 FPS. Most rifles are at 10 lbs., easily carried and the recoill won't beat you to death.

I try to hunt with mine as much as possible.

Why not the 500/416? Another great chambering, but the recoil is a bit much for me.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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CptCurl
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#55975 - 28/04/06 12:46 PM

Ok, a week into the poll and the results are overwhealmingly in favor of the .450/.400 3” Nitro Express (Jeffrey).

Some are indifferent to it and the older 3 ¼” version. We all agree that there isn't squat for difference in the two rounds.

There are several votes for the .375 H&H Flanged Magnum.

Some give the .375 H&H Belted Rimless an honorable mention.

So at this point the .450/.400 cartridges are the clear choice.

Let's let the poll go on a bit longer and see what develops.

My preliminary conclusion is that the market is oblivious to the .450/.400. Maybe Ruger and Hornady will bring it back, but let's face it, the Ruger No. 1 isn't going to set the world on fire. I think Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, etc. should be chambering this round. It was quite prevalent before WW2, and then forgotten. But the die-hard keepers of the flame have not forgotten. It's as good a cartridge as it ever was. It just could use a little contemporary support.

Ruger and Hornady are worried shitless about the .408" vs. .411" groove diameter problem. This is just like the problem with the 8x57, and it is a killer. The ammo maker is afraid to make ammo in .411" for fear it will blow old .408" guns. So they will do a shitty compromise, with anemic ballistics so you won't blow the smaller bore. The result will be like American 8mm ammo. Nothing! That's not going to bring back these fabulous chambers.

Well, let me crawl down off my soap box for now.

More votes, please. And don't let these comments influence your vote.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#56059 - 29/04/06 11:19 PM

If I could have only one double rifle for life, it would be a 9-91/2 pound S/S 450/400 Ne 3" , with QD scope bases & rings.

In reply to:

Some are indifferent to it and the older 3 ¼” version. We all agree that there isn't squat for difference in the two rounds.

Ballisticlly, there isn't a difference between the two, but there is a great difference in many of the rifles they are chambered in. The 450/400 3.25" was first a black powder cartridge, so many of the rifles found in this chambering are BLK PDR rifles, and some that were simply marked as Nitro proofed by some dealer who wanted the extra value of the NP rifle. A rifle chambered for the 3" 450/400NE carries no such worry, as the cartridge was never offered in a black powder, or nitro for black loading. Any rifle chambered for the 450/400NE 3" is automaticlly nitro proofed. These two cartridges are ballisticlly twins, but they are not interchangeable.

This is a long winded, round about, way of saying, I would choose the 450/400NE 3" Jeffery, over any of the cartridges listed in this poll! I think this small poll is an indication that Merkel, Chapuis, and Heym would be tapping into a real live market, if they chambered for the 450/400NE 3" round in their field grade rifles.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Double_Trouble
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#56418 - 05/05/06 02:04 AM

Cpt Curl: in advance of posting my reply/opinion, I would like to comment on your poll, I think that what you have postualated here is a very interesting and IMO a wonderful way for all board members to particiapte, and I frankly am surprised that your query hasn't generated more responses.
well done and I salute you sir !
now for my opinion on the matter......

I would opt for a Szecsei/Fuchs Double Bolt Action rifle in the .375 calibre. my reasoning is as follows; the 375 offers greater range on quarry that is more elusive than say a buff or ele but still delivers enough wallup, with a well placed shot, to drop either of the two above species when required. when time is not permitted to make as accurate a placement, you can still stand confident knowing that you have four more pills available to you with a couple throws of the bolt.the rifle would be above field grade but not extremely ornate and would be fittted with express sights and provision to add optics as the years pass and the peepers grow weary or for longer plains game shooting.
bang for the buck (puns intended) the Szecsei/Fuchs double bolt is one hell of a rifle blending the best of both worlds !
for what its worth... that's my take on the matter.
thanks for the use of of soap box Captain!

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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WY_
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: Double_Trouble]
#56565 - 07/05/06 07:26 AM

My W. W. Greener 450/400 3 1/4" at 9.2 # is fine, now that JJ has re-regulated it.

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577500WR
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: WY_]
#56584 - 07/05/06 03:27 PM

The 450/400 3" would be my first choice. The 375 H&H has killed a bunch of game and killed it dead. Compared to x-sectional area bigger is better.

I have a 450/400 3.25" and it is great. The problem is finding brass. I lucked out and walked into a local gun shop and found a box of Woodleighs in soft point round nose 400 grains! I will never walk into a gun store in Anchorage and find 3.25" brass...dream on.

If you threw 450 #2 in there, I would change my vote. Now talk about easy to find bullets and very hard to find brass! Those are the facts and the draw backs. There is no free ride.

--------------------
Most folks nowadays think talking about guns is a perversity. I view the old guns as being a record of the industrial revolution transforming the ordinary into high art and functionality.

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CptCurl
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Re: Opinion Poll – 4 Medium Bore DR Cartridges [Re: CptCurl]
#57321 - 18/05/06 09:30 AM

The NitroExpress.com Medium Bore DR Cartridge poll has been running for nearly a month now. Twenty members have participated. In good Southwest Virginia fashion we have 23 votes cast, as three members cast two votes each!

I hope the debate is not over. Surely there are more than 20 members who have an interest in medium bore double rifles. We welcome further participation.

The following chart gives a summary of the votes so far:

You can see that the .400 Jeffery is way out in front. Many voters expressed indifference between it and the .450/.400 3.25". There seems to be the perception that brass for the latter is harder to come by. That's not been my experience. Sadly, the 3.25" version only got two votes, both of which were ties with its 3" brother.

The .375 Flanged is a contender, but way back in the pack.

Although Double_Trouble wasn't specific about which .375 he was choosing for his Fuchs, I am assuming it is the belted variety, given the nature of the rifle it will go in. By the way, DT, thanks for your kind compliment. Also, I sure am glad the belted .375 got a vote. I have two of them in double rifles!

There are a lot of others out there who should express their opinions. Don't be bashful. The poll will go on!

Best regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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