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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Marrakai
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Peep Sights on British Doubles
      #55248 - 20/04/06 12:33 AM

In the Spring 2006 DGJ, Derek Stimpson's treatment of 'Sights' for double rifles beginning on page 55 mentions ghost-ring peep-sights: "Peep sights tended to be near the breech for a quick 'ghost' sight picture".

Anyone seen, owned, or photographed an original 'ghost-ring' peep-sight on a vintage Brit double? I'm toying with the idea of fitting one to my future 12-bore DR or Paradox project, in the expectation that the gun will outlast my perfect eyesight! I have my own ideas on how to proceed, but wouldn't mind a look at a traditional set-up.

Can anyone help?


BTW, I am considering a low-mounted, truncated counter-bored tube design, which I have built before on the clip-loading bridge of a converted Lee Enfield, rather than the stupid 'wedding-ring' type a la Ashley's original design!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55250 - 20/04/06 12:59 AM

Marrakai,

Here's a photo of an original MacNaughton round action double rifle in .303 that has an aperture sight. In fact, it has no other rear sight, the rib being designed entirely around the aperture sight.



This rifle is late pre-WW2. Last fall it was under the ownership of Graham Mackinlay. I had a good deal of conversation with him about it at the Vintagers, but I didn't get to see the rifle as it remained in Scotland.

Another British rifle wearing an aperture sight is the .500/.465 NE Purdey that just sold off Westley Richards website. It has what appears to be an add-on folding peep sight mounted on the toplever. The rifle also has a quarter rib with express sights:








Whether this is original to the gun I have no clue.

That's about all I can point to on the British side. As you certainly know, the continentals came up with all sorts of tang-mounted folding aperture sights. I am assuming your inquiry doesn't include those.

Hope this helps,
Curl


P.S. I have another, relatively poor photo of the MacNaughton sight from directly above and behind. This reveals much more detail of the sight assembly. I'll post it later today when I have access to my FTP.




--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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A10ACN
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: CptCurl]
      #55272 - 20/04/06 03:24 AM

I have seen another Purdey with the peep sight mounted on the top lever. Don't know if it was original or not but it looked it.

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JPK
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: A10ACN]
      #55273 - 20/04/06 03:51 AM

I have seen several English DR's with the folding aperture at the spindle. All appeared original as I recall. All also had express sights which would render the folding aperure nearly useless.

I like the idea as put into service by McNaughton in Capt Curl's photo. But I would prefer the same set up with a 1/4 rib and another dovetail for an express sight for use before the peep became mandatory.

JPK

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55332 - 20/04/06 10:42 PM

Marrakai,

Here's the other photo I referred to.



You can see this sight has no provision for elevation adjustment. The MacNaughton's front sight is adjustable. Of course, a conventional express sight has no provision for elevation adjustment, either.

Curl



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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Marrakai
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: CptCurl]
      #55335 - 20/04/06 11:22 PM

Curl:
Thanks heaps for the pics. That MacNaughton is pretty wild, I remember seeing a photo of Bill Feldstein's MacNaughton, a .600 I think, with short ribs and a muzzle-band. Weird.

Guys: I don't care much for the folding peep on the top-lever spindle, too hard to make for starters, and too much of a 'gadget' for my taste. Bit like a tang-peep, always in the way.

Also, the 'wedding ring' style of ghost-ring sight, like on the MacNaughton, always looks fragile to me, and a bit dangerous: I think it would hurt a lot jammed into your thigh after a fall.

I have knocked up a sketch of my intentions for a ghost-ring sight on the future 12-bore rifle, apologies for my manifest lack of artistic talent, but hopefully you get the idea! It is counter-bored from the muzzle-end, and would be matched with a standard gold-bead caterpillar front sight.



If anyone has any other examples of this style of sight on a double, please don't be shy!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55340 - 21/04/06 12:43 AM

Yeah, that MacNaughton is a weird duck for sure. I was considering buying it, but in the end I just couldn't stomach its odd features. These are rare rifles, for a fact.

There happens to be another .303 MacNaughton on the market at this time on the Schwandt website. I'll make mention of some design features and give a link to the photos. Here's the listing:

Schwandt MacNaughton listing

It has a "ribless" design, meaning there are no ribs between the barrels from the forend forward.

There is a clunky looking block at the muzzles with the front sight, which has a screw underneath for elevation adjustment. It looks like the adjustment screw is made for use with golved hands and a coin - not a delicate screw by any means!


Profile of muzzle block.

Photo of bottom of muzzle block.

The Schwandt rifle has a conventional express rear sight with a parade of folding leaves.

Profile of MacNaughton .303


Marrakai, you are certainly familiar with these features already, but I thought I would post references to these photos for the benefit of others who may not have seen or handled one of these interesting rifles.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55345 - 21/04/06 01:25 AM

Marraki,

I once saw a DR on the web that had been retro fitted with a sight very similar to the one you have drawn. The tube might have been a little shorter. I saw it for sale on Westley Richards site I think. It is long gone. I don't know if the sight was counterbored or not and I recall that it was screwed to the rib.

The retro fit job wasn't first rate but it struck me that the way the sight was shaped that it wouldn't interfere with holding or handleing the rifle and wouldn't be catching on clothing, belt etc. If the sight was fitted into a dovetail I would have more confidence in it staying put.

By the way, I frequently hunt deer in a shotgun only area and 12 gauge rifles qualify as shotguns for hunting deer. I'm a lefty and every Paradox or 12 bore rifle I have seen has been too right handed to economically put into service for this lefty.

By chance, while on vacation, I stopped into Dewing's Fly and Gun Shop in West Palm Beach, Florida last Saturday. They are a high end gun shop and I got to handle several new high end DR's, including one beauty in 500NE by Joseph Just, priced at a stunning $130,000. Unfortunately they were short on Brit DR's at the time.

While shooting the bull with one of the owners I mentioned my problem and he suggested a solution. His suggestion was to have Siace(sp?) build a 12 ga rifle. He's heading to Italy at the end of the month for business with some of his suppliers, including Saice and will see what can be done.

I specced out the rifle and included two extra dovetails in the 1/4 rib in case I want to mount a scope in the future. I think I'll call to make sure one of the dovetails is far enough back so that it could be used for a sight like you have drawn up for that inevitable time when a peep sight becomes the best option. The Saice rifles in stock ranged from 30-06 to 45-70, their limit on the bigger bores. They seemed OK, for the price.

Curl,

Thanks for the links to the photos of the McNaughton. Very interesting odd duck.

JPK

Edited by JPK (21/04/06 01:30 AM)

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WildCattle
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: CptCurl]
      #55347 - 21/04/06 01:31 AM

A friend of mine has modified one of his DR for a 1/4 rib mounted aperture sight, and it's working pretty good for him.
The opening is (I believe) in the 3/16" range. It did not seem like it would become a potential hazard.
I have been looking at the Mc Naughton guns as well, in the "converting a 12 gauge to DR" point of view. Their monoblocks are large, and not too many people like the ribless barrels. I actually believe that McNaughton christened them "Dual Rifles" rather than double Rs.
I think that the lack of rib was forced by the barrel spacing/frame size they use.
Overall, the shape is not too attractive (to me anyway), but it is an interesting engineering evolution.
BTW, there are some intrinsic advantages (weight distribution, accuracy??? ) to that topology, however, I'm not sure that they are worth the end result.
Another gun for sale now was also bult on a large frame ,and it is not exactly pretty.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976713644.htm
This post is probably on the wrong forum, but I could not resist.

WC

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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banzaibird
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55348 - 21/04/06 01:39 AM

Marrakai,

My only thoughts would be that with the length the rear site would act much more like a peep sight than a ghostring. The added length is surely going to make it more likely that the rear sight/ghost ring doesn't simply "disappear" the way it should. The reason I say this is because unless you have a significant back bore you will still be seeing the sides of the elongated tube and this will have the effect of making it more prominent in your vision and much more like a peep sight.

Just my thoughts. Though I like the look of the sight you drew up.

Bill

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Marrakai
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: banzaibird]
      #55384 - 21/04/06 01:46 PM

Thanks Curl.

JPK:
several years ago I contacted Verney Carron about making a fully-rifled 12-bore. At the time, they were offering 12-bore guns with one barrel rifled, the other smooth, erroneously named 'Paradox', only I wanted one with both barrels rifled. I also indicated that I would be happy to take delivery of the gun without ribs fitted, so I could regulate it myself. Perhaps this would have breached their rules of proof, in any case they played dumb. I then requested a pair of the rifled tubes as 'spare parts', already ferrulled ready for fitting to a monobloc (essentially grabbed straight off their production line). Again, they played dumb. Wanted me to send engineering drawings, for heaven's sake! In the end it was all too hard. They no longer offer the fully rifled barrels to my knowledge.

BB:
I have fitted a sight like the one in my crude drawing to a Lee Enfield, and I can assure you that it does work as a proper ghost ring. When counter-bored, you can only 'see' the very front face anyway, exactly the same dimensions as a 'wedding-ring' type. Perhaps I should photograph the 'Smelly' sight on the weekend.

Thanks all for your considered responses.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JPK
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55386 - 21/04/06 02:41 PM

Marraki,

Siace has built rifled 12 gauge SxS's for Dakota Arms. They aren't doing it any more though. When I talked to a fellow at Dakota a couple of years ago he could'nt tell me what ammunition they used to regulate. He promosed to find out and when I called him back a month later still didn't know. That ended my interest.

The fellow at Dewing's requires Siace to regulate rifles he orders with Federal ammo and assured me that he would with this rifle too and provide me with the Federal load number so I can stock up. Alternatively we agreed on the Rottweil Breneke ammunition made for rifled twelve gauges. I have used that ammo in my 12ga pump fitted with a fully rifled barrel and it performs fine on our deer. It is actually too hard of a blend and the slugs just pass through with no apparent expansion, but with a hole that big in a deer they work fine.

JPK

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elvas
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55395 - 21/04/06 07:22 PM

Marrakai,
The closest thing to your rear sight specifications (excluding a completly custom one) is, I think, as follows. On page 315, Brownells #58 catalog, there is the Track-Lock sight system. The upper half of the rear sight could be easily modified (flattening the bottom, cutting dovetails, thinning to fit the rib width etc). The screw hole could be tapped, and a new screw fitted, so you can adjust for windage and lock in place. Even the hole could be modified to fit your aiming needs. I do not have one of these sights on hand to tell for sure but some owner in the forum might help with dimensions. In Wilson Combat site, you can see the newer production of the same system. Maybe Mr. Wilson have some of the older production available and can also modify them to your specs.
Lefteris

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banzaibird
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55401 - 21/04/06 10:26 PM

I look forward to pics of the sight. Though why did you call it smelly? Also what size back bore and what size through hole? What are your thoughts on attachment to the gun? Is it to be a fixed rear sight? Do you want some adjustment? How long is the hooded section? Any trouble with it in low light conditions? Just wondering as I think it's an interesting design?

Bill

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Marrakai
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: banzaibird]
      #55409 - 22/04/06 01:10 AM

BB: 'Smelly' is the common nickname for SMLE, more properly Short Magazine Lee Enfield. A bit parochial, perhaps. Apologies.

I'll measure the aperture and back-bored dimensions on the 'smelly' sight when I photograph it, sometime on the weekend, and post the details here. It's not exactly as drawn, since it had to fit onto the clip-loading bridge, but same tube principle. A fixed sight with no adjustment is always stronger, and never on the wrong setting! All you ever need for the first hundred yards. (...or perhaps 75 yds in the case of a 12-bore slug! )

elvas: Thanks for the details of that sight set-up, I'll have a look at it to get the ideas going. I certainly intend making the sight myself, though. If you want something done right....

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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banzaibird
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #55415 - 22/04/06 01:30 AM

Ahh, "smelly" makes sense now. Though one could hope for a more flattering nicname .

Bill

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Marrakai
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Re: Peep Sights on British Doubles [Re: banzaibird]
      #55487 - 22/04/06 05:11 PM

Here are pics of the sight I made for my converted Lee Enfield many mango-seasons back. Must get around to blueing it one day! The tube is .340 long and .300 outside diameter. The aperture is .125 diameter, and is counter-bored approximately .180 diameter. When shooting, the peep-sight is 8.5 inches from the eye. The sight radius on this particular rifle is 25 inches.

From the rear:




From the muzzle-end:




I discovered that it is impossible to photograph the peep as seen by the human eye, ie I could not get it to ghost-out on camera. In truth, this sight does not quite ghost-out completely anyway, but retains a thin solid 'wire' circle. It does not occlude any of the target however. It could easily be made slightly smaller, or bored out a little more, but I really like it as is.




The advantage of building something yourself is perfect customer satisfaction!




PS: I just realised while typing this that the camera would need to be set on telephoto, not wide angle, to achieve the ghost effect. I might try again later, when there are a few less golfers on the course...!


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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