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hoppdoc
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SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WHERE?
      #54192 - 05/04/06 08:51 PM

I Googled and have been looking for penetration testing for Double rifle bullets with various Sectional Densities and have found only 2 on big bores-one at 470mgobo.com and another by Charlie Haley in African Hunter Mag Vol 5, No.6,Dec 1999. Any others out there I didn't find?

The African Hunter Article was interesting as a older 500 gr pill from a 458 at 1950fps only penetrated HALF as far as newer technology 500grainers at 2180. The SD was obvioously the same. 458-Kinda a hunters death pill at 1950fps when hunting Ele. Just p*ss them off good enough to stomp you into mud.

I am interested on estimates of how the penetration will decrease with similarly constructed solids with different Sectional Densities ie a 0.32(577/750gr) versus a 0.28(577/650gr) at similar velocities.

Sorry for all the BS-Velocity/SD is critical to penetration on Ele-How low can you go?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (05/04/06 08:58 PM)


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500grains
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54204 - 06/04/06 12:05 AM

The old timers considered the 650 grain bullet appropriate for India where tigers were the target, but not for ele hunting in Africa. Sorry I can't give you anything mathematical.

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hoppdoc
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: 500grains]
      #54218 - 06/04/06 02:38 AM

500-

Sir-
Empiric data and the penetrtion data on the 458 at 1950 fps vs 2180 fps in the few penetration tests I found suggests a marked non linear increase in penetration depth with velocity(~2x depth with 200fps more velocity). Makes sense as Energy/works relationship with the square of velocity

Todays 458's are considered adequate at 2050 fps so maybe the bottom threshold for penetration on Ele is just that-- a modern solid projectile with a S.D.>0.31 moving at 2050 fps.

If so this would rule out the 577/650 gr bullet with a S.D. of 0.28 at 2050 fps for sure!! It would need to be driven MUCH FASTER with solids to get adequate penetration. Thus it would seem to NOT be a good Ele round in ANY Double.

Am I wrong here? What is reality from those who have shot a multitude of elephants? Thanks for your input and your thoughts on the above--


Lastly,I am curious.
Does anyone recall the standard DG Double rounds with the slowest/fastest velocity and a S.D> of 0.31?? Would the 375 Flanged be the fastest?



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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gitano
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54220 - 06/04/06 02:55 AM

You will get much greater satisfaction if you abandon use of the aniquated characteristic called "Sectional Density", and use instead a measure that will correlate well with penetration - namely momentum. It is calculated as mass time velocity. (As opposed to kinetic energy which is of course one half the mass times the velocity squared.) Of course bullet design matters, but within a given bullet design, momentum is head-and-shoulders better as a predictor of penetration than sectional density is.

Paul


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AzGuy
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: gitano]
      #54227 - 06/04/06 04:25 AM

Paul

Are you sure you really understand the physics of sectional density?

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hoppdoc
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: AzGuy]
      #54228 - 06/04/06 04:50 AM

Paul-

Sectional density is related to bullet wieght and the diameter it acts through. This has a direct bearing on penetration and bullet effeciency.

As an example the penetration of a pencil would be different from that of a similarly fashioned depleted uranium rod when moving at the same velocity. You get whacked with the uranium one and at the some increasing impact velocity it will go THRU you while the Pencil penetrates minimally. That's the effect of SD.

Sectional Density in a properly contructed bullet means penetration and death if aimed appropriately. Momentum refers to the blow or impact shock delivered by bullets.The old 4 bores used an Ele had great momentum and caused great wounds but were poor killers due to lack of penetration.

SD-penetrates and kills
Momentum-whacks 'em and makes them know/feel they been horribly hit.

You want both--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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500grains
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54241 - 06/04/06 07:10 AM

doc,

I have not shot enough elephant to give you any reliable data. But here is what I have observed:

585 nyati, 750 grain solid, 2250 fps, 3.5 feet of penetration on body shots

500 NE, 570 grain solid, 2150 fps, up to 59 inches of penetration on body shots with Woodleigh FMJ, up to 72 inches of penetration with flat nose solids.

470 Capstick, 500 grain solid, 2300 fps, 10-20% less penetration than the .500 NE with flat nose bullets. It appears to me either that larger meplats really do increase penetration (the .500 NE meplats were much larger than the 470 meplats), or else my testing medium (elephant bodies) is not very consistent, or both.

450 Watts, 480 grain Woodleigh solid at 2200 fps, about 30 to 60 inches.

This is all from memory and may be off a little.


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gitano
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54252 - 06/04/06 09:47 AM

In reply to:

SD-penetrates and kills
Momentum-whacks 'em and makes them know/feel they been horribly hit.


.

Sorry, but you are mistaken.

What you are referring to as momentum is actually kinetic energy. Sectional density is, to put it in the vernacular, a mere shadow of momentum. Momentum is wholly about penetration as it is the force that must be overcome in order to stop the bullet.

Let me first address Sectional Density.

Two bullets, one a .284” 160 grain Hollow Point (hereafter HP), and one a .338” 200 grain “Partition” (hereafter Part) arrive at the target with identical kinetic energies - let's say for this little exercise 3000 foot-lbs. Using the 3000 ft-lb impact energy, (ke), the impact velocities are 3064 f/s (HP) and 2748 (Part). The sectional densities are .283 (RN) and .250 (Part). The higher sectional density of the 160 grain would suggest that it will penetrate farther than the .338. The experienced will think not.

Let’s consider the momentum of each bullet. The 160 has a momentum of 2.177 slug-feet (since many here will be disinclined to use metric units), and the 200 has a momentum of 2.440 slug-feet. The momentum values correctly predict not how much one will penetrate, but clearly which one will penetrate farther. One could argue (and many here probably will), that the 160 is an HP. I chose that bullet configuration, to make a point, but point design is immaterial unless you believe that a 160 grain 7mm will penetrate farther than a 200 grain .338 Partition when both have identical impact energies. In which case, there’s really not much further discussion necessary.

A factor no one ever talks about unfortunately, is "power". Power – in a physics sense - is the rate at which “work” (again in a physics sense) is done. “Work” being defined as force times distance. Units of power are: watts; horsepower (for example 33,000 foot-lbs per minute equivalent to 746 watts); joules per second, etc. “Power” equals work divided by time. If the “work” is in units of joules, and time is in units of seconds, “power” will be in watts.

Let me provide an example of how “power” – in the physics sense – explains the difference in observed “lethality” between round-nosed “penetrators” and large-meplatted hollow points. In this example, we’ll use bullets of the same caliber, but different design and weight. Weights will be 115 and 160 grains, and designs will be large-meplatted HP and RN. Once again, both arrive at the target with identical impact energies (kes), but different momenta, and sectional densities. Momenta and sectional densities predict that the 160 RN will penetrate farther than the 115 HP. Probably no argument there. However, when we observe a “bang flop” with the 115 vs a run 100 yds and then die with the 160, does “power” and “work” explain the different terminal responses? I think they do.

So as not to engage the argument of “through-and-through” (t-n-t) vs “keep–it-all-inside” (k-i-a-i), (which I couldn’t care less about – dead is dead as far as I’m concerned), we’ll say that the 160 travels exactly to the far side of the animal and lodges just “perfectly” beneath the skin. Therefore it has dropped all of its energy inside the animal – none “wasted” (as might be argued by those that advocate against t-n-t shots). The 115 on the other hand, has just penetrated into the chest cavity where it “exploded” thereby dropping all of ITS energy too. Because both bullets had identical impact energies, exactly the same amount of force was required to bring both bullets to rest; therefore the same amount of “work” was done by each bullet on the animal. HOWEVER, it is certainly NOT true that the same amount of “power” was developed in the animal by each pullet. For discussion’s sake let’s say that the 160 traveled 18 inches (45 cm) and the 115 traveled 6 inches (15 cm). Disregarding the impact velocities but acknowledging that the 115 had to be going faster in order to have the same impact energy as the 160, the 115 will come to a stop FASTER than the 160 does. Again disregarding their exact impact velocities, let’s just say that the 115 comes to rest in one-third the time that the 160 comes to rest. (This is certainly favoring the “work” done by the 160, but we’ll keep this “conservative”.) Referring you back to the equation for “power” - “work” per unit time - and remembering that the “work” done was EQUAL, it is mathematically certain that the “POWER” developed in the animal by the 115 is in fact THREE times the “power” developed by the 160.

Now do not misunderstand me here. I am not advocating for either t-n-t or k-i-a-i. Neither am I advocating for “kinetic energy uber alles”. I am simply pointing out a plausible explanation for the OBSERVED devastating terminal performance of light-weight bullets when compared to the OBSERVED terminal performance of slow, heavy RNs. Everyone should shoot what they like as far as I’m concerned.

Sectional density is a different matter. It was developed in an era when calculators and computers weren’t even a vague conception. It was a way to APPROXIMATE momentum when calculating momentum was “beyond” the average “Joe”. Furthermore, “gunwriters” (ptooey), and bullet manufacturers “picked up” the SD baton and “ran with it”…. WAY too far. SD’s limited value is not a position I thought up one day. Most serious ballisticians with even a passing interest in terminal performance realize (and so state) that SD is a weak substitute for momentum. Given the mathematical abilities of today’s shooters, and the tools available to them, the ease of calculating momentum renders SD obsolete – at best.

Don’t get me wrong. The original poster here wanted some info on “penetration”. I suggested that he would get more satisfaction in that search by using momentum. Youse guys wanna stick with SD… knock yourselves out. You’ll get no argument from me.

Paul


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k80
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: gitano]
      #54253 - 06/04/06 10:24 AM

Yes I think he does understand.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

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hoppdoc
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: gitano]
      #54257 - 06/04/06 11:34 AM

Paul--
You are quite correct in that the words I used were applied with generic "hunting" associations.

The accepted purpose of sectional density is to give a relative estimate of the potential penetration of similarly shaped projectiles with different masses moving at similar speeds.

Specifically SD is the weight of the bullet divided by the square of the diameter. It is the numerical representation of the bullets ability to carry its momentum forward .The higher the number the better the ability to linearly penetrate a medium with uniform frictional resistance.If I want deep penetration I want
more momentum acting thru a given bullet diameter than less momentum. At the same velocity that means more mass.

My generic referral to "momentum" is incorrect as well.How can we rate cartridges as "charge stoppers" ? How hard a "blow" does the bullet impart? The concept desired is basically the signfigance of the contact force vector on the contacted object.A larger surface contact area/momentum suggests a higher % of the force vector will be expended upon surface contact.The animal will percieve a "harder blow".

I personally feel SD has great utility and represents similarly fashioned bullets relative abilities to penetrate.

I must be old, cause I like it!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (06/04/06 11:36 AM)


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AzGuy
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: gitano]
      #54265 - 06/04/06 01:45 PM

Exactly(the formula?) how are you calculating momentum?

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!


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gitano
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: AzGuy]
      #54267 - 06/04/06 01:59 PM

Momentum equals mass times velocity.

To the group at large:
Since I am so new to this forum, if you will alllow, I'll back up a pace or two.

I was recently "pointed" to this forum by a member that goes by the name "colorado". I am very glad he directed me here. I have found this site very interesting and for the most part a very friendly bunch of guys. I'd hate to come off as a pompous ass in my first posts. I assure you I was neither trying to impress anyone with my "knowledge" (what I don't know about double rifles would fill volumes), nor was I trying to pick a fight. SD just happens to be one of a few "hobby horses" I'm a little too quick to climb on. So... please accept my apology if I have come off a little too "too". I look forward to learning a great deal more about double rifles.

Thanks for your understanding,
Paul


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bulldog563
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: gitano]
      #54282 - 06/04/06 05:07 PM

Paul,

I enjoyed reading your response and in my mind you did not come off as a "pompous ass." I don't think there is any need to hold back any of your knowledge or experience just because you are a new member. If you have a differing opinion on a subject feel free to make it known. I feel one of the greatest assets of this forum are the differing views of the members on myriad subjects and the freedom to speak your mind without having to deal with the people who feel the need to attack those of a different opinion just because it isn't their own (seems to be lots of them on the net).

We try to keep it a friendly, informative and respectful atmosphere.

Welcome to the forum, I expect you will enjoy it here.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
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hoppdoc
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: gitano]
      #54283 - 06/04/06 05:29 PM

Paul

No apologies are needed!!

I think all enjoyed the info shared.

More concept input and debate leads to more insight and reflection on reality.More views mean more ways to understand an issue.Knowledge is power.

What I have said about Minimums on penetration of Solids on Ele is pure speculation and observation on my part.Is it reality?
I don't know.Elephant hunters with autopsy experience at the minimum velocity level discussed could certainly validate or negate my conclusions.

Welcome to the forum!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: gitano]
      #54287 - 06/04/06 07:52 PM

Paul,

Welcome. Feel free to join in.

We do our best to keep discussions on a polite plane. That doesn't mean that we can't present differing opinions. It just means that we refrain from insults, etc. The result is lively, polite discussion, and more information is exchanged thereby.

Regards,
Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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clark7781
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: CptCurl]
      #54303 - 07/04/06 01:35 AM

It's the gentlemanly discussion (as shown above) why I love NE so much.



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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jscybercat
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: clark7781]
      #54802 - 14/04/06 01:48 PM

My understanding from this is that sectional densities are valid only within the same caliber (and within a certain velocity). Use them that way and they'll be helpful: try to mix and match calibers, velocities, and bullet weights and you'll get problems. Is this close enough for the average Joe?

Here's a link for the Linebaugh penetration tests.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5


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500grains
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: jscybercat]
      #54805 - 14/04/06 01:57 PM

Those Linebaugh tests are a pretty good joke. He determined that the 25-20 is a better penetrator than the .500 NE.

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hoppdoc
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: jscybercat]
      #54834 - 14/04/06 09:07 PM

The Linebaugh testing results were used in wet paper media. That is known for having results which are not reproducible.

Don't believe the Linebaugh stuff against Dangerous Game, it can get you killed.

Here is some info from another thread--

Further confusing testing offered to hunters--
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

I was surfing the net on 470 NE issues and came up with the Linebaugh penetration tests and related articles.These seem particularly misleading in suggesting to all hunters that handguns/less potent firearms can be effective hunting tools on the basis of penetration. It suggests that a 500 Linebaugh pistol,450gr@1300fps is better than a 470NE 500gr@2150. They used bone backed up by wet paper and noted penetration. Wet paper testing is not reproducible in my limited look at penetration testing media.Solids vs softs testing isn't valid in this media either.
It was comforting to note the 600 Nitro blew up the whole test apparatus.

I think many people get misled by penetration=stopping power.Yes a 7x 57 will head shoot,penetrate and kill an Ele but will it stop a charging Ele with a non fatal CNS hit?

I feel it is the proper combination of penetration and applied energy dump into the dangerous game animal to harvest/survive it.The kinetic pulse theory gives the "whack" info and past experience gives bullet type,SD/velocity needed for the penetration to reach the vitals on the toughest hunting shot angles. I personally think you need BOTH unless you never screw up your game shots a bit.

Judgements based solely on artificial medium testing can get you KILLED!! Prior hunting of the beasts is the real/ultimate crucible to see if a particlar firearm makes the grade!!

Personally--
I suggest you rely on the cumulative past performance of those PH's and hunters who have shot thousands of animals in total--Many of the members here have extensive experience(not me!).

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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NE450No2
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54860 - 15/04/06 02:45 AM

I fired a few rounds from my 475 FA Linebaugh into some elephant skulls, both bull and cow on my last Safari.
All shots reached the brain. Load used was Buffalo Bore 420 LFN. However the 475 does not penetrate as good as 450 North Fork FP or 480 Woodleigh Solids from my 450 No2, nor as good as 286 gr Woodleigh Solids from my 9,3x74R.


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ALF
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: NE450No2]
      #54900 - 15/04/06 01:56 PM

I just love this one:

Momentum is the better predictor of penetration ? and SD is not?

Sorry but I strongly disagree !

Momentum by itself says nothing about penetration in a medium, short and simple as it does not address the retardation forces that the medium exerts on the projectile !

A 150 gr monometal, non deforming, non fragmenting 30 cal projectile shot at higher velocity does not outpenetrate a 220 gr monometal, non deforming, non fragmenting 30 cal projectile shot at equal momentum values, not at the maximum allowable velocities for our current ballistics systems !

Retardation as a factor is dependent on projectile mass and projectile frontal area, in short related to what we commonly refer to as SD.

The variuos penetration models that exist such as Poncellet all employ momentum but in addition to the mathematical calculation of Retardation ! It is a ballistics principle as old a man itself !


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500grains
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: ALF]
      #54908 - 15/04/06 03:09 PM

In reply to:

Retardation as a factor is dependent on projectile mass and projectile frontal area, in short related to what we commonly refer to as SD.




I have also noticed that retardation varies among different forumites.


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jscybercat
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Re: SOLID PENETRATION TESTING ARTICLES-HOW MUCH/WH [Re: 500grains]
      #54967 - 16/04/06 02:21 PM

Didn't say it was useful, just available.

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