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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: DoubleD]
#53368 - 27/03/06 05:12 AM

DD,

Well every gun with Holland on it before 1892 ? (sometime around here)
was made by Webley & Scott - or whatever they were called before this time.
And more than a few were probably made after this date as well.

500 Nitro

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DoubleD
.400 member

Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2435
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 500Nitro]
#53369 - 27/03/06 05:22 AM

Holland and Holland would be volume 5 from Winfer. I am just finishing up Volume 4 Westley Richards. I have volume 5.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: DoubleD]
#53419 - 28/03/06 04:37 AM

In reply to:

"I saw no reference by Winfer to suggest that complete Belgium made rifles were represented as English, with one very notable exception...the ZAR Martini."

In reply to:

"Histroy tell us that Francotte provided these guns for Westley Richards and some time after Francotte closed up his English based gun business."

No, it doesn't. The contract with the ZAR for 12,450 "Francotte Pattern" Martinis was Westley Richards', obtained through Beckett's, their South African agent. Westley's contract with Francotte stipulated that Westley would manufacture the rifles on actions provided by Francotte. So yes, I imagine that there are Francotte markings on the internals, the actions were made by them, but the guns were barreled, stocked, proved and finished by Westley in England. Westley's contract with Francotte does not support the claim that these were "complete Belgium made rifles".

Is a Rigby Magnum Mauser a German made rifle because Rigby sourced the action from Oberndorf Mauser? The argument is silly.

In reply to:

"I am not a student of the double."

Neither is Winfer. And there is a world of difference between singles and doubles. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been done with doubles with respect to rough parts. I'm saying that a gun built in England from rough parts sourced from abroad does not make the gun "German made" or "Belgian made". I've seen no evidence of more substantive work done in Belgium on pre-war British double rifles. The assumption that practices that may have applied to the manufacture of single shot rifles are therefore likely to have applied to double rifles is simply not logical. In my opinion, only someone who is not a student of the double would think it would be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mehulkamdar
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: DoubleD]
#53466 - 28/03/06 02:45 PM

DoubleD,

Those are beautiful rifles. Some details of the calibre etc please.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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DoubleD
.400 member

Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2435
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#53635 - 30/03/06 06:39 AM

In reply to:

I saw no reference by Winfer to suggest that complete Belgium made rifles were represented as English, with one very notable exception...the ZAR Martini

You shouldn't shoot of you mouth before you can look up your facts. This statement is wrong. I take full responsibility for it. The error is mine and not Winfer.

I got my household goods today and went right to my my books.

Westley Richards acquired complete actions from Francotte and assembled them in their Military arms shop.

Westley Rrichards provided the ZAR with 30, 663 completed ZAR Martini's (Francotte).

The error is mine and I apologize.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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MopaneMike
.300 member

Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 147
Loc: So Cal USA

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 500Nitro]
#53783 - 01/04/06 03:27 PM

(Quote)
Interesting that it has a stalking safety yet is called as a C grade gun !
and it is almost identical to the stalking safety that my Lancaster Sidelock 450/400
had from what I could tell from the photos

500Nitro, would you mind explaning this statement? do you mean this is usualy reserved for a higher grade rifle?

Thanks..

--------------------
MopaneMike

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: MopaneMike]
#53789 - 01/04/06 04:12 PM

MopaneMike

One thing you will find out with English shotguns and rifles
is that there ain't no rules !!!

GENERALLY, I have seen Stalking safeties on higher grade guns
but that doesn't mean they weren't put on lower grade guns -
as per my statement.

One thing we forget is that alot of DR's were ordered by people
and ordered to what they wanted - so people may have ordered
a C grade gun but specifically ordered a Stalking Safety - which
of course like all add on's, added to the overall cost.

So in answer to your question, I would say yes, they were usually
reserved for a higher grade rifles as that is where I have seen them
- except the gun referred to in this post.

500 Nitro

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MopaneMike
.300 member

Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 147
Loc: So Cal USA

Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 500Nitro]
#53796 - 01/04/06 07:41 PM

One thing you will find out with English shotguns and rifles
is that there ain't no rules !!!

GENERALLY, I have seen Stalking safeties on higher grade guns
but that doesn't mean they weren't put on lower grade guns -
as per my statement.

One thing we forget is that alot of DR's were ordered by people
and ordered to what they wanted - so people may have ordered
a C grade gun but specifically ordered a Stalking Safety - which
of course like all add on's, added to the overall cost.

So in answer to your question, I would say yes, they were usually
reserved for a higher grade rifles as that is where I have seen them
- except the gun referred to in this post.
..................................................................................................

Thanks Mate

--------------------
MopaneMike

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