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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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oupa
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Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: kweber]
      #52908 - 21/03/06 12:26 PM

I happened to be present during the initial (and final) test firing of a poorly thought out conversion of a 20ga. Stevens to 32Win Spec. Now here is a good place to state that STEVENS / SAVAGE guns are not suitable for ANYTHING other than the original chambering! Their single bolting system is argubly the weakest of any modern era doubles. That said, the gun wasn't put together too bad and the head space was (alledgedly) within spec. The one thing over looked was the non-bushed strikers! The large firing pins apearently projected too far and the first shot resulted in the right striker being blown out. Not to be defeated so easily - not to mention nothing left to lose - the string for "remote firing" was transfered to the rear trigger... this time the stock was blown completely off!!!!!!!! What's more, this was factory ammo not "proof loads!" JUST DON'T DO IT!

Now, as for the twenty bore's suitability, even this poor example of an action held tight. Additionally, twenties actually have higher chamber pressure than larger bores. There is the issue of wall thickness as well as the important factor of weight in a heavy recoiling rifle, but strength? I'm not convenced the twenty would be over burdened in reguard to low pressure rifle rounds... I wouldn't use one, but not because of strength.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: oupa]
      #52923 - 21/03/06 03:58 PM

Good point about the strikers, high pressure cartridges are far more prone to have primer failure's as well. Again I would not build around a high pressure cartridge without fully bushed firing pins. Keep the pressure around 10 tons or less with Federal 215 primers and you should have no issues.

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doublegunfan
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Reged: 26/04/05
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Loc: Brazil
Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: oupa]
      #52970 - 22/03/06 05:05 AM

I had a similar problem with my Beretta. The strikers were too long, and they caused a severe punch to the primers, but did not pierce them. I reduced the length without changing the diameter. I didn't have any issues after that.

Someone also mentioned that the mainsprings might be a little too stiff and that they should be reworked to reduce the possibility of damage to the primers. But I did not try this route.

Now, I don't think this is a particular problem with the 20ga frames of certain guns, but something that can happen to any frame size, as it has to do with the strikers, not frame size.

Having used factory loads for your test, I would rate the problem you experienced as a "design issue", that could be avoided by correctly measuring the original strikers. If longer than 1,5mm (projecting out of the face of the action), the strikers may require some filling.

More than that, once the first barrel presented a serious problem, the test should have been aborted immediately. Maybe the gun could have been fixed at that point, before further damage.

Fred

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Loc: Denmark
Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #53130 - 23/03/06 08:10 AM

Bullet: 515 grain cast lubed.

45 grains Varget with filler .... way high .... 12"..1150FPS

50 grains Varget with filler ..... high .... 8-9".. 1250FPS

55 grains Varget with filler ..... high .... 8" .. 1380FPS

Tomorrow I'll go with the full 72 grains varget Nitro for black load stepping up 5 grains at a time. Gun feels good! Points quick, sights are excellent, no extraction problems thus far.

Gun is a engineering test mule, we're measuring all pieces of the action to determine what is failing and how to make it last longer. We're should know almost to the shot how many rounds the action can take before coming off face and shooting loose. We'll make changes to it and try again.

Colorado

Normally one will see the bullet are printing higher than POA when shooting with a higher velocity bullet than the sights regulated for.....but here in this case the LOWER velocity makes the bullet print HIGHER???? Just wondering????

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: rigbymauser]
      #53138 - 23/03/06 09:33 AM

Only thing I can think of is that the bullets stay in the barrel longer, and thus you are recoiling up and away longer. This causes the muzzels to rise more and change POI.

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doublegunfan
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #53140 - 23/03/06 10:35 AM

I think you got it, CO!

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: doublegunfan]
      #53170 - 23/03/06 04:20 PM

Thanks Colorado!

I had my thoughts directed that way aswell....the same thing often happens in revolvers.

sincerlyl

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oupa
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Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #53772 - 01/04/06 08:20 AM

Colorado, I must ask... if this rifle is a test platform for possible future commercial builds, why did you choose such an obsolete cartridge? Just curious. If this has been answered in a previous post please excuse my asking. I have not read the whole two pages.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26866
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: First firing of project gun #1 50-90 Sharps 2.5" [Re: rigbymauser]
      #53810 - 02/04/06 02:10 AM

Yes- Co's got it. Barrel time is the key to lower printing with higher velocities. The same thing happens with handguns chambered with handgun ctgs. Higher velocity means lower shooting.
: My .45 Colt m94 Trapper was probably the epitome of that phenominum due to the jumping in recoil of such a rifle. Once sighted for cast 300gr. HP's at 1,740fps, factory .45 Colts running 1,000fps wouldn't even hit the target at 50 yards, let alone 100yds- wayyyyyyyyyyy over.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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* [Re: oupa]
      #53826 - 02/04/06 04:04 AM

*

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Bronco
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #53830 - 02/04/06 05:01 AM

Colorado, I have a Husky M102 hammergun in 16ga that would make a wonderful 45-90 or 110. The action has a Greener crossbolt and is esentially the same action (M103) that Husqvarna used to make the 9.3x74 hammer double rifle. This specimen is in excellent condition. My gunsmith is Danny Pedersen, a barrel maker in Prescott, AZ. He is an excellent machinist/rifle maker, but says he is not a shotgun guy. Where do I start? Thanks, Bob

Edited by Bronco (02/04/06 05:03 AM)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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* [Re: Bronco]
      #53832 - 02/04/06 05:53 AM

*

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Bronco
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Re: 405 Win and 45 caliber builds [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #53873 - 02/04/06 12:08 PM

Return to your PM. Bob

Edited by Bronco (02/04/06 12:30 PM)

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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* [Re: kweber]
      #54120 - 05/04/06 07:00 AM

*

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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* [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #54285 - 06/04/06 05:49 PM

*

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #54289 - 06/04/06 08:29 PM

Colorado,

Please let me know how that action holds up for you. As i said in the other thread when I told you of the action. It seemed fine but we only had about 150 smokeless loads through it. Then it was finish regulated for BP. In total there is well over 500 rounds through the one we built in 50-140. Still tight.

Bill

P.S.- If you do some stoning work on the sidelocks they will run smooth as you could ever want.

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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* [Re: banzaibird]
      #54295 - 07/04/06 12:06 AM

*

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AkMike
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #54304 - 07/04/06 01:35 AM

Is the other one in 16ga with 24" tubes?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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banzaibird
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #54306 - 07/04/06 01:42 AM

The original barrels are 20" that the owner wanted to keep. So we made a new monoblock. The new 50-140 barrels ar 28" with express sights. 1 standing 2 leaves. There is a short quarter rib which the sight is dovetailed into. Then hollow rib from there to front sight. I was afraid of balance because of the 28" barrels. However I profiled the barrels using some of the info gained here and they are .110 wall thickness from about 14" out to the full 28" Then with the addition of pad the rifle balances pretty well.

The one we used had just a little roughness in the sears. We stoned them a bit and rehardened the surface. Smooth now, very smooth. The only thing I don't care for is that the hammers seemed to be angled out just a little bit. I think that could probably be worked out with out much issue though. Since the guy who was footing the bill didn't mind we didn't play with that at all.

I have one sitting under my bench for a furture build but I found a nice older hammer gun to use for a build first.

I'd be interested in hearing how your build progresses.

Bill

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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* [Re: AkMike]
      #54308 - 07/04/06 02:08 AM

*

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Loc: Nevada
Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #54321 - 07/04/06 04:21 AM

I'm really enjoying the enthusiasm you guys are taking to the build of these rifles.
Keep it up and have fun with it!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #54337 - 07/04/06 09:23 AM

Colorado,

Did you just full length sleeve the existing barrels? Or did you cut them and use the existing monoblock?

I never did see any of the 24" guns. The local shop is big on cowboy shooting so they have a couple of these KBI's on the shelf at all times. I do quite a bit of business there so got an especially good deal on the one I have. I bought it for less than $350. I was originally thinking of building the 577 2 3/4 on it but then found another action I might use instead.

Tinker this stuff is fun. Don't you have a nice back action lock action sitting around??? Well start building and join the fun.

Bill

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tinker
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: banzaibird]
      #54339 - 07/04/06 09:44 AM

Bill-

I do indeed have a very nice jones/back action... rear end of a C&H 8b SxS, also an absolutely miniature toplever back action SxS that'll end up as a 25-25 stevens mini express later on.
I also have the metalworking skills to pull a project like this off very nicely, all of it in-house save for boring and rifling my own barrels, and I could set up for that too with the equipment I have here if it really came down to a need-to-do basis.

Much more important lately though is my nine month old daughter and the pursuit for a bit of a solid career lateral -- both of which have cut deeply into my F.O.T. in the machine shop.

Stay tuned though, my wheels are turning and there's blue smoke in the future of my benchmade projects.

For now it's all I can do to sneak out back and turn a few pinfire rifle cases out or even do a bit of reloading for my new .458

All is just as it should be and I'm enjoying the ride as it goes.





--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: 50-90 Sharps Hammer gun build [Re: tinker]
      #54345 - 07/04/06 10:22 AM

Tinker,

I look forward to the pics when you finally do get to building it. It sounds like you have a great shop. I hope to get there someday but currently I'm a parasite of a fellow I've corrupted into building his own DR's as well . He is a retired tool and die guy who has a full shop because he does small production runs of stuff for extra money. I'm still learning every time I use the mill or lathe it seems. I'm fortunate that I have a built in teacher and a shop I can use anytime. I must be learning something as I can make a monoblock from a chunk of 4140 in about 3-4 hours by myself. That might not be impressive to the machinests here but that is a huge jump from where I started.

I remembered the Coggie pics. Any plans for that yet?

The little toplever sounds cool. How did you decide on 25-25 stevens? You turning your own cases from solid bar? You going smokeless or BP? A few years ago I had built a 25 hornet on small stevens frame single shot (marksman). It worked well enough but I had limited use for it and soon parted ways with the little rifle. I still have a marksman in .22 long.

Bill

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Loc: Nevada
Making chips [Re: banzaibird]
      #54349 - 07/04/06 12:00 PM

Three to four hours from billet to monoblock is pretty good time there.
When it comes to machining parts, once you know where you need go go from barstock to product getting the second, third, fourth... part done is quicker each time -- even if they're simply similar but unique parts. Speeds, feeds, cutter geometry, tooling setup, cutter path -- it all comes together a little better each time.

If the aptitude is there, a man can go from operator to produciton machinist pretty quickly if the tools and coaching is there to facilitate the development of a steep learning curve.

The Stevens idea came more than anything from the charming looks of the cartridge. I'll be going smokeless with that one for sure, extraction will be much less of an issue with clean-burning modern powders. I have a little pile here of sixty pieces of Bertram virgin brass in that caliber, I won't likely need to turn any brass for the thing in this coming decade.

The eight bore C&H on the other hand almost certianly will be a blackpowder chugging roundball machine.
I'll have the barrels made of good modern barrel steel so I'll also be able to cook up smokeless loads for it without worry, but I want that thing to be a charcoal burner.

Really, I'd also like to find somewhere a pair of damascus eight bore barrels for it and saddle them on a set of shoe lumps juuuust to have an eight bore damascus side by side shotgun with a pair of rifle tubes to go with it. I know 8b shotgun totally impractical, but I just don't care. I'll most likely go with a smaller guage than eight for the rifle tubes too, likely twelve or fourteen.

I'm constantly (although waaaay in the back of the agenda) peeking around for a pair of damascus eight bore tubes offa' *any* side by side shotgun.
If you find a pair of them let me know.



--Tinker




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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