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MopaneMike
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 147
Loc: So Cal USA
this ones killing me..
      #52920 - 21/03/06 03:38 PM

This is killing me!!! http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/dundee/fine_rifle/407327_lancaster_dun.jsp

I wish I knew how to post the pictures.. Buy rifle or go to Zim.. Buy rifle or go to Zim.. Buy rifle or go to Zim.

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MopaneMike


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: MopaneMike]
      #52925 - 21/03/06 04:27 PM

Mike:

It's a nice looking gun, but....if you decide to bite, have a first rate smith check out the head of the butt-stock carefully. A fella I know said he saw it before it was repaired (notice the dowel through the cheeks) and it was a mess. If the repair is good, fine. If not, a properly done re-stock will cost significant dollars. There are also splinters out of both sides of the fore-end wood, which can probably be repaired.

This gun has been around the net for quite a while now, and hasn't moved. Make 'em an offer, and have it shipped to a qualified gunmaker for inspection. Cabelas had no problem with shipping a DR to J. J. Perodeau for a friend of mine.

I understand the interest. It's a pretty rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #52942 - 21/03/06 09:12 PM

400
Do you know anything about the origin of that particular style of action?
I've seen a few different British makers names on them and I think someone here suggested that they are Belgian.
Can you shed any light on this?
Thanks
They're nice,.....I want one!


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 4seventy]
      #52944 - 21/03/06 09:17 PM


4seventy

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the photos - I think they are
Belgian made as well.

There are a few around in Australia like that.

I think it is one of the better made Belgian guns.

Interesting that it has a stalking safety yet is called as a C grade gun !
and it is almost identical to the stalking safety that my Lancaster Sidelock 450/400
had from what I could tell from the photos.

500 Nitro


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #52949 - 21/03/06 11:24 PM

I was told a long time ago by a gunsmith in the trade, that that particular action style originated from Lincoln Jeffries in Birmingham. Whether they made them in Birmingham, or brought them in from the Continent and finished them up in Britain is open to conjecture. According to the Internet Gun Club, Lincoln Jeffries brought air rifles in from Germany for sale in the UK, so they may have brought-in actions or finished guns as well. I have only ever seen one Lincoln Jeffries gun myself, a box-lock game-gun of 16 or 20-bore, and it did possess those distinctive bolsters on the action. Of course, other Birmingham 'makers' may have made a trip or two to the Continent as well in the dead of night....!


Both Nigel Brown and Douglas Tate are pretty tight-lipped about the firm. Here's some of what the Internet Gun Club has to say about Lincoln Jeffries:

"Son of George Jeffries of Norwich, he was born in Norwich in 1847 and christened George Lincoln Jeffries.
His firm was established prior to 1870, probably in 1868, at 31 Whittall Street, Birmingham.

In 1870 at a London exhibition the firm won a gold medal for workmanship, and in 1879 they won the "Field" 20 guinea prize for choke bores. In 1883, the firm's double express rifles were placed second at the "Field" Rifle Trials.

The firm moved in 1888 to 48 Whittall Street, and in 1889 in Melbourne they were awarded First Order of Merit and a medal.

At some time around 1880-1890 Lincoln Jeffries' son, Lincoln Parkes Jeffries, opened his own business at 28 Whittall Street trading as Lincoln Jeffries Jnr. It seems the business did not trade for long, he probably re-joined his father, and eventually he took over the firm.

In about 1895, many gunmakers were trying to increase the power of their guns and decrease the weight (resulting in the obvious problem of an increase in recoil), but Lincoln Jeffries gained a positive reputation for their lightweight shotguns indeed, they later claimed to have been the originators and inventors of lightweight 12 bore breechloaders and used "Light Weight" as their registered trade mark."



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: Marrakai]
      #52959 - 22/03/06 01:32 AM

Alan:

No, I have nothing definitive. Yeah, I've seen a number of different names on it. I had a .450/.400 Watson Bros. that was the twin of that Lancaster. It was a nice rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #53001 - 22/03/06 09:27 AM

Thanks Gents.

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MopaneMike
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 147
Loc: So Cal USA
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: MopaneMike]
      #53051 - 22/03/06 05:10 PM

Buy rifle or go to Zim.. Buy rifle or go to Zim... Aargh!

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MopaneMike


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375Brno
.333 member


Reged: 18/10/05
Posts: 354
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: MopaneMike]
      #53064 - 22/03/06 08:43 PM

MM

Do both ... Do both.... Do both !!!

Regards
Rick


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MopaneMike
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 147
Loc: So Cal USA
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 375Brno]
      #53159 - 23/03/06 02:02 PM

375... How right you are!...But then reality kicks in and I can't afford to do both without going into debtors prison.. Then I say, Hmmm. but you only live once!.. Then reality kicks in again..

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MopaneMike


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MopaneMike
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 147
Loc: So Cal USA
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #53160 - 23/03/06 02:06 PM

400Nitro was able to enlighten me on the condition and background he has regarding this wonderful looking DR.. based on this well founded information I have decided to pass..

Thanks to all for your help and information..

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MopaneMike


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AdamTayler
.375 member


Reged: 22/03/04
Posts: 688
Loc: B.C.
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: MopaneMike]
      #53231 - 24/03/06 02:20 PM

Well then, good luck on your hunt in Zim!

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It's the journey, not the destination.


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OWD
.224 member


Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #53249 - 25/03/06 01:59 AM

Does anyone have any more info on a possible Belgian connection to this gun? Personally, I think the gun is all British.

While I'm kind of new to DRs, I have been following English shotguns for a long time. I don't see any reason to think that this gun was made in Belgium.

Of course, I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again.

Because I'm always trying to learn more about fine guns, I would love to find out more about this DRs history.

If you have any input, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

OWD

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Obsessed with Doubles


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: OWD]
      #53252 - 25/03/06 03:14 AM

OWD:

I've heard about the Belgian connection for years, and remain unconvinced. A great many "London" DRs bear Birmingham proof marks, trade marks of Birmingham firms, signatures of well-known Birmingham barrel filers, etc. However, I've never seen anything on a British DR (other than Manton of Calcutta) that would support a Belgian connection.

All of these British DRs of supposedly Belgian make that I've handled over the years have uniformly borne provisional English proof - which is conducted on the rough blanks before they are joined up into barrel sets. I suppose it's possible that the blanks were sent to England for provisional proof and returned to Belgium, but I'm not sure that I buy that. It would have been a lot of trouble to go to with quite a number of double rifle specialists available in Birmingham. These rifles were also of English definitive proof, and some had British barrel filers' signatures.

The rifle in question was made by a trade maker for Lancaster, as it bears the trade maker's serial number in addition to Lancaster's. My Watson Brothers did as well. I have no idea who it was. I've heard the Lincoln Jeffries reference before, but can't prove or disprove it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2396
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #53257 - 25/03/06 05:13 AM

Pick up Wal Winfer's on British single shots. He talks about the process at length.

The Key person behind it was Auguste Francotte. He would acquire the parts from various cottage parts makers in Belgium, import them to England where the English Gunmakers bought the parts and finished the Guns out in their shops. The only Belgium Provenance might be a single letter or a short number on the action body that didn't match anything else on the Gun. The British Gun makers applied their serial number, view and of course Proof marks. Born in Belgium, citizen of England!!

The trade Farquharsen’s were almost all done this way, according to Winfer, as were some Martini's.

There is no reason to believe the practice wasn't applied to Doubles as well.


--------------------
DD, Ret.


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: DoubleD]
      #53272 - 25/03/06 07:30 AM

I have Winfer and was aware of that - and it is documented that Westley made Martinis FOR Francotte. What Winfer describes would work with single shots. However, there is no reason to believe this was ever applied to doubles, because the manufacturing process was so different.

There is also the matter of completeness. Many British double rifles have barrels made up from blanks supplied by Krupp, but that doesn't make the rifles German made. A rifle made up in England from barrel blanks and an action forging supplied by a vendor in Liege is not Belgian made. "Belgian made" implies a gun that was mostly completed in Belgium. I've never seen any evidence to support the contention that any British makers routinely put their own name on double rifles made primarily in Belgium.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #53274 - 25/03/06 07:46 AM


400

Very interesting discussion. I will do a bit more investigating from
this end and see what I can find out.

500 Nitro


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #53282 - 25/03/06 11:38 AM

500 Nitro:

Thanks. I'll be interested to hear what you find out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2396
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #53310 - 25/03/06 09:57 PM

That's interesting. Westley Richards Made Martini's for Francotte. My studies seem to indicate the predominace was just the opposite. Although there is some indication in Winfer that Richards furnished some parts for finishing out by Francotte.

Winfer referred to the practice of parts made in Belgium. Although there is some inference that complete actions were involved. I saw no reference by Winfer to suggest that the complete Belgium made rifles were represented as English, with one very notiable exception...The ZAR Martini.







Histroy tell us that Francotte provided these guns for Westley Richards and some time after Francotte closed up his England based gun business. The internals of the gun are very clearly marked AF. (And I went through my photo albums to post pictures of the AF marks and have none to show. Doesn't help my rifles are 8000 miles away in storage.)

It just doesn't seem reasonalble to assume that the practice of making base parts in Belgium including action bodies or frames was limited to just single shot rifles and excluded doubles. It was the practice of the trade at the time. I don't have access to my Winfer books right now to see if he mentions the practice as exclusive to single shots.




--------------------
DD, Ret.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #53314 - 26/03/06 02:03 AM


400NitroExpress

I know this is more modern but what about William Doulgass ?

Weren't they made on the continent and finished in the UK
with English Proof marks

(I do not include the William Douglass in the main discussion
which I hink we should call before WW11 ?)

500 Nitro


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OWD
.224 member


Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: DoubleD]
      #53333 - 26/03/06 10:44 AM

DoubleD-

Have you ever seen an English DR with AF marks on it?

What about other Belgian marks on English DRs? Has anyone out there ever seen them?

Was the Martini a low price-point gun? Were they ever made in the UK? Who was the market for them? Were they mass produced? I know nothing about them.

Thanks

OWD

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Obsessed with Doubles


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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #53341 - 26/03/06 03:07 PM

500 Nitro,
I have been in contact with WD and the action was made in Holland and barrels from Germany ,then built in England and proofed in London. Many top name gunmakers used krupp barrels for years but mostly rest of gun made in England

Steve

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"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

Edited by RLI (26/03/06 03:22 PM)


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2396
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: OWD]
      #53348 - 26/03/06 08:50 PM

OWD,

I have little to no experience with doubles. I am not a student of the double. I cannot tell you If August Francotte made doubles, nor can I tell you if he made parts for doubles.

I can tell you during that Golden era of English Gunsmithing, Francotte supplied the English trade with gun parts in all shapes and forms. The business was so good that up to the early 1890’s he had a shop in England, in London I believe, to deal with the business. The Golden Era was the transition from the Muzzleloader to cartridge gun. Some very innovative and intriguing firearms designs were developed during that time; both singles and doubles and towards the end bolt action and automatics (full and Semi.) The industry required parts and Belgium supplied them. In England the Gunsmith fit and finished the parts out to the high standard in which the English Gun is known. The fact that Belgium parts were widely used to make singles shots during this time, only reinforces my belief that it was widely practiced through out the trade and included doubles.

Do read Winfer’s wonderful books as he has much more detailed information than my feeble memory can provide. His books focus on the British single shot, but so much can be learned about the entire Gun trade during that time period by reading his work. From his research it is obvious to me that there is no good reason to believe that your fine English doubles do not have at least some or even a great deal of Belgium Heritage with in.

The Double Gun Inquisition Board of Directors is now meeting and I will be branded a heretic and burned at the stake…

The Martini runs the full gamut of models and price ranges. From the basic military Martini to its civilian versions; Volunteer and trade patterns to the basic sporter patterns, to some truly elegant richly engraved models. Can we not forget our often quoted hero John Taylor makes comments on a gold inlayed Martini that he dropped in the river, was it the Zambezi? Auguste Francotte made a full range of very high quality Martini’s.

There were many different makers of the Martini in England. All the usual government contractors like BSA in all its incarnations, LSA, HRB, Webley, Martini and many others. Most likely also your favorite double rifle smith made them up. Braendlin Arms was probably the biggest English supplier of Martini action bodies for the commercial market. Most English made Martini’s have some sort of mark or code identifying the maker.

But there are a large number of well known Gun suppliers with very English names selling Martini rifles that are only English by their engraved marks. Retail guns if you will. Here are some examples:





I have seen this action style with several different makers’ names on it. The top two are mine and are marked I. Hollis. The bottom is marked Robert Jones. I don’t believe these actions are English origin as they are all very conspicuously not marked by maker. I have also seen this style marked W.W. Greener and Thomas Turner.

In defense of the Belgium guns I will say this. There is a group of Martini’s called Muscat Martini’s. They are often found with both English and Belgium proofs and view marks and sometimes the word English make. Most found now days are in pretty rough condition as, they were well used. But recently I have seen several English and Belgium made Muscat Martini’s in extremely fine condition and the Belgium made ones were every bit the quality of any English Martini I have encountered.

But enough about Martini’s this is about Double Guns.



--------------------
DD, Ret.


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OWD
.224 member


Reged: 21/03/06
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: DoubleD]
      #53360 - 27/03/06 02:01 AM

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I just don't know. I've spent a lot of time studying British shotguns. While I do know of a Lebeau-London-maker connection, this wasn't until after WW2.

Birmingham was a huge gun making center- maybe the biggest in the world. Every type of gun was made there, from rifles for the slave trade and the American Civil War to shotguns for the UK's highest and mightiest.

Hundreds (probably thousands) of people worked in the double-shotgun field alone. These people were very specialized and they made everything.

So I guess I don't know why a Brit maker would turn to Belgium for parts when everything was right there in Birmingham. Perhaps they did for certain types of guns like the Martinis or perhaps they did for certain parts on other guns (bbls on low-end shotguns come to mind).

I'll ask around and see if I can dig up some more info.

Thanks again for the reply. I appreciate the info and feedback.

BTW: Francotte made lots of doubles - shotguns and DRs - for a very long time.

OWD

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Obsessed with Doubles

Edited by OWD (27/03/06 02:46 AM)


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2396
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: this ones killing me.. [Re: OWD]
      #53365 - 27/03/06 03:43 AM

It wasn't just Martini's or low end guns it was guns of all types. Winfer’s BRITISH SINGLE SHOT RIFLES, VOL. 3; JEFFREY RIFLES JEFFERY & THE TRADE FARQUHARSONS WITH NOTES ON NITRO CARTRIDGES has the greatest detail about the trade.

You certainly can't call the Farquharson low end. That rifle type was widely made with parts from all over. The gun makers were interested in making money and they did it by getting the parts where ever they could.

Winfer also discusses how the guns were actually made. You may have a vision of a Gunsmith spending many hours sitting at bench in the shop at Holland and Holland making your fine Double or Farquharson. But in fact most of the work was subcontracted out to various different Gunsmiths and Gunshops. Thomas Turner made a lot of guns for the big names and especially Jeffery. You won't see Turners name on them anywhere except in Jefrrey's ledgers.

Winfer doesn't just say that is the way it is, he cites sources especially the gunmakers original records and makes quotes from trade publications of the era.

The practice of using parts from other sources and subcontractors was wide spread, and there is no reason to believe the double was excluded from such practice. Why should it.

I do strongly urge you to get Winfer's books and read them. He specifically addresses this issue of the stigma of Belgium guns and gun parts and the reality of the issue. They are well worth their price.







--------------------
DD, Ret.


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