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bulldog563
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Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock?
      #42991 - 04/12/05 05:36 PM

If price were no object which would you choose, the Anson & Deeley Boxlock or a Back Action Sidelock and why? What are the pros and cons of both these actions? The rifle will be a 500 NE. Any experiences would be great. I asked the Boxlock vs. Sidelock question earlier and was told that the boxlock was stronger...ie better. Talked to Butch and he said he has never had anyone bring a sidelock back with problems related to strength. In fact his personal rifle is a Sidelock. What do you guys think? I originally was going to go for a boxlock with faux sideplates, when I considered that it was only 2 grand more for the true Sidelock I decided on getting it on Butch's recomendation. Opinions? He hasn't started yet so not too late to change back. Also I think I am going to get his best quality option on the stock work. I wanted to get the whole best quality option but he informed me that it could not be done when I need it so I am going to bring it in at a later date for the best metalwork to be done. Does anyone have a Searcy Sidelock or better yet have both a Searcy Sidelock and a Searcy Boxlock?

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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: bulldog563]
      #43005 - 04/12/05 10:04 PM

Bulldog,

There is a difference between "back action sidelock" and "sidelock". Since Searcy only has sidelock guns on his site I assume that is what you are talking about. The head of the stock on a sidelock gun is going to be weaker than that of a boxlock. For one simple reason they have to remove more wood to inlet the plates, tumblers, sears, etc for the locks. Thus it is deffinately not as strong. However that is a relative term. "not as strong" can still be strong enough.

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: banzaibird]
      #43006 - 04/12/05 10:09 PM

I'm pretty sure that Searcy's 500 Sidelock is a back action sidelock. So is a back action sidelock "strong enough"?

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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43007 - 04/12/05 10:15 PM

bulldog,

I wouldn't worry about it.

Go with what you like in looks, fit, feel and balance.

DR's have been made with Sidelocks for years without
a problem and just on what people say, I very much doubt
that Butch would put something on the market that is not sound.

IMHO, you are more likely to break the stock from falling over
than from the recoil of the gun.

I just re read your original post and if a True Sidelock is only
$2k more, I would buy the Sidelock.

500 Nitro

Edited by 500Nitro (04/12/05 10:18 PM)


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43010 - 04/12/05 10:18 PM

Doesn't the fact that companies like Purdey only make a sidelock mean it is plenty strong? Also Butch and many other makers make sidelocks in calibers of 577 and larger...If it is a strong enough design for these big calibers it must be "strong enough" for a 500. Does this logic work? Has anyone heard of a sidelock from a reputable maker have problems related to its strength?

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 500Nitro]
      #43011 - 04/12/05 10:20 PM

Whats the difference between a back action sidelock and a Regular sidelock?

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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43012 - 04/12/05 10:21 PM


Bulldog

Purdey only make Sidelocks as they only make "Best" guns.

Strength is NOT a problem with Sidelocks - it is a non issue
otherwise any problems would have shown up long ago in
Hollands, Purdey's etc who made lots of Sidelocks in big bores.

500 Nitro



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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43013 - 04/12/05 10:23 PM


A back action sidelock has the lock work / spring
on the lockplate to the rear and a bar action sidelock has the
spring along the bar - hence the shape of the Lock going
forward.

Any good book on Shotguns should show you a picture
of the 2.

500 Nitro


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 500Nitro]
      #43014 - 04/12/05 10:24 PM

Is one better then the other?

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500Nitro
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43015 - 04/12/05 10:26 PM


bulldog,

I'm not technically minded enough to say.

Someone else on the forum will be who I
am sure will answer it.

500 Nitro


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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 500Nitro]
      #43016 - 04/12/05 10:30 PM

Cool, thanks for the help.

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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43029 - 05/12/05 01:09 AM

As I said in the earlier post. The term stronger is realative. Yes the boxlock stock head is stronger but the sidelock guns are strong enough. As has been said I'm sure Searcy wouldn't market it if he had problems with them.

The back action sidelocks usually allow the wrist and the entire gun to be thinner and thus usually lighter. No cutouts need to be made into the sides of the receiver so that can be thinner and then that allows the wrist to be thinner, thus reducing some weight.

Back Action Locks

Sidelocks

Now keep in mind these are both hammer guns. It's just the quickest pics I could find.

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new_guy
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: bulldog563]
      #43059 - 05/12/05 03:47 AM

bulldog - I think the definitions and info you are looking for are best summed up here.

http://www.hallowellco.com/boxlock.htm#Sidelock

and here

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

NitroX - this is a pretty good list of terms and definitions, maybe you could make stickly link somewhere as a resource.




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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: new_guy]
      #43071 - 05/12/05 04:59 AM

BullDog,

I believe that the back action sidelock rifle is the epitome of the best double rifle. Every English maker and European maker made their best rifles with this action. To my eye it is the more svelte, sleek and lovely, without close competition (except the very rare round action, ie trigger plate action, Scottish rifles.)

There is no current practical difference between the results you will see with a back action rifle or an A&D rifle.

For a mere $2000 price difference I wouldn't hesitate to choose the back action sidelock rifle.

I am biased, though, my rifle is a back action sidelock.

JPK


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mickeyModerator
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock? [Re: JPK]
      #43080 - 05/12/05 08:05 AM

For $18000 why are you still looking at a Searcy? Do you want a 'new'gun? Look at the 500 Hambrusch that 500 grains bought for less than $12000.

A much better value.

Don't get sideplates. Their is something 'fake' about rifles with sideplates. Like Volkswagons with spoilers.

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: mickey]
      #43088 - 05/12/05 10:10 AM

Where can I see some pics of this rifle? I am going to stick with Butch but would be interested in seeing some nice DR's. At this point I would like to get a DR that is new and only mine. In the future I hope to get some vintage Doubles...they sure are nice. Where should I look to see some used DR's?

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mickeyModerator
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43096 - 05/12/05 10:43 AM

500 grains can post the pictures, it is his now. There are many, many, many dealers in Double rifles on the internet. Most of the big makers have sites. Champlins, Hollowell, Westley Richards etc.

You need to just look. I think most are linked here in the link section at he bottom.

I'm not disparaging Searcy. It is a fine rifle for $10,000. It is just when you go to $20,000 you open up so many more options.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43100 - 05/12/05 10:59 AM

Bulldog:

Regarding your question as to which is better:

There are two types of sidelock, bar-action and back-action. They are so named because the difference between the two is the placement of the mainsprings (which are V-springs). In the bar-action, the mainsprings lie within the action bar, in front of the lockwork. The back-action has the springs pinned to the lockplate itself, behind the lockwork. Since the action bar of the bar-action must be inletted to house the mainsprings, the action bar is thus weakened at the break-off - the weakest point of any drop-down barrel action. Since the mainsprings of the back-lock don't lie within the action bar at all, more steel is left in the bar, making it, theoretically, the stronger of the two. This is why the back-action is sometimes preferred for double rifles. Virtually all of the lockwork of a boxlock is housed within the action body (the box) which means that it is, theoretically, weaker than either sidelock.

That's the theory. In the real world, with regard to the relative strengths of the actions themselves, it's all rat lotion. All three have been field tested for over a century and have been proven to be more than strong enough. Far more nitro boxlock DRs have been built than sidelocks and they're just as reliable, if not more so. As for the Nitro hammerless sidelocks from the best makers, Holland "Royal" double rifles have always been back-locks, but Purdey's and Rigby's (London) were usually bar-locks and they worked fine.

The weakness of the sidelock DR is in the stock-head, due to the inletting of the locks. This shouldn't be an issue when the rifle is new, assuming it is of good quality (no comment), but becomes one as they age. The battering from recoil, softening from oil soaking, etc., can lead to problems. In my observation, far more sidelocks suffer from these problems than boxlocks. The Baker extended top tang (the top tang of the action extends through the wrist and up over the top of the comb), as found on Holland DRs, can't prevent this entirely, but it sure helps to spread out the load. I wouldn't have a large-bore sidelock DR without it.

For a hard service, heavy caliber DR, I'd get a boxlock.

Banzaibird:

The sidelock on Searcy's web site is a back-action sidelock. Yes, the shape of the lock-plates is of that usually associated with bar-actions, but that has nothing to do with it. The lockplates of Holland "Royal" and Marcel Thys DRs are of the same shape and those are both back-locks. Both look very similar to the Purdey, which is a bar-lock. Simple matter to pin back-action locks to a bar-action lockplate, which is exactly what they're doing. The only reliable way to tell the difference is the placement of the pins. Compare the lockplates of a Holland "Royal" shotty with those of a Holland "Royal" DR. The pin placement is completely different because the locks pinned to them are different. Take a look at the top photo link in new_guy's post. This is what the lock of the Holland DR looks like on the back side.

The preference for the back-action for double rifle use has nothing to do with weight saving or profile.

JPK:

"Every English maker and European maker made their best rifles with this action."

This has never been true. "Best" back-action DRs are perhaps the most common, but not by a wide margin. There are a lot of "best" bar-action DRs out there.
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kino
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43102 - 05/12/05 11:01 AM

500 Grains post a link to his Hambrush a couple weeks ago. It's titled "My Ham" Hope this works http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=doubles&Number=40878&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

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bulldog563
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43110 - 05/12/05 11:30 AM

400Nitro,

When you say "The Baker extended top tang (the top tang of the action extends through the wrist and up over the top of the comb), as found on Holland DRs, can't prevent this entirely, but it sure helps to spread out the load. I wouldn't have a large-bore sidelock DR without it."

Does this really make a difference? If so would the long trigger guard also make it stronger? Is the increase in strength really enough to make a difference?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: bulldog563]
      #43119 - 05/12/05 11:59 AM

Bulldog:

IMHO, yes to both, and yes, I believe that it can make a difference in the long term. The guard tang should blind into the pistol-grip cap on a double rifle.
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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43147 - 05/12/05 04:04 PM

400NitroExpress,

Yes, not all best rifles are back actions; my comment was, of course, an oversimplification. Seems that the vast number of best heavy nitro rifles are, whether English or European. Am I mistaken here?

So far as sleek, svelte, lovely, I refer to the aesthetically pleasing lines of sidelocks in general as opposed to boxlocks.

I don't think there exist any hard service for a double rifle anymore, PH rifles perhaps, but unlikely, excepted. No one spends enough time in the bush or shoots enough, especially under tough conditions to even come close to what might be considered hard service, at least from the historical perspective.

JPK


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43150 - 05/12/05 04:31 PM

JPK:

Yes, an oversimplification. Yeah, I think most are back-locks, but not overwhelmingly so. Especially in England, there was just too much "snob" resistance to the back-action, which was too strongly associated with Birmingham. This is also most likely why some "best" gun makers like Holland disguised their "best" back-action rifles by using bar-action lockplates with back-action lockwork - and the "bar-form back-action" sidelock was born.
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JPK
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43156 - 05/12/05 06:35 PM

400NitroExpress,

I will have to keep my eyes open and try to get a ratio, just for kicks. I'll group them in over 375 H&H or Flanged Magnum and an under catagory.

Interestingly, from what I've read, I found no hint of any snob resisance to a back action rifle.

JPK


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banzaibird
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Re: Anson & Deeley Boxlock or Back Action Sidelock [Re: JPK]
      #43197 - 06/12/05 08:38 AM

That's why I like this forum. I never realized that makers built back action loacks on bar action side plates.

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